Funding for To the Contrary provided by E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, the Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation This week on To the Contrary the Supreme Court's decision overturning a woman's constitutional right to abortion, the protests and mid-term election fallout from that ruling.

Then, is hybrid work here to stay?

And will it help women get ahead or keep them down?

Then history was made as Ketanji Brown Jackson became the first female African-American to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court.

{MUSIC } Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

We're focusing on the year's most important stories for women.

And we begin with the Supreme Court ruling on abortion and what it meant for the midterm elections.

No red wave washed across the country in the midterm elections despite history warning it should have.

Republicans did gain control of the U.S. House of Representatives, but not by many seats.

The Democrats remain in control of the U.S. Senate.

Abortion rights supporters unexpectedly and angrily flooded polling booths, partially in response to the new extreme right majority on the U.S. Supreme Court and its decimation of federal abortion rights protections.

By Justice Samuel Alito's opinion in the Dobbs case, the ruling overturned Roe v Wade, which legalized abortion for 50 years.

13 states have begun enforcing restrictive abortion bans.

Seven more are on hold due to legal challenges.

Astute political analysts also blame Donald Trump and the liberal backlash against him.

Joining me today are Donna Edwards, former U.S. House member from Maryland.

Linda Chavez , chair of the Center for Equal Opportunity Ann Stone, Republican Strategist and Deborah Carnahan, former judge and federal prosecutor Do you think women move forward or backwards in 2022?

I think obviously the Supreme Court decision in Dobbs was a big hit.

But I'll tell you, when you look at what's happened in states like Kansas, the ballot initiatives that were on the ballot in November, that affirmed abortion rights, and you look at the you know, the wins, I think you'd say that women had a relatively good year.

No question about it.

After that Dobbs decision, there was a kind of regeneration and resurgence of women that showed up at the polls in November.

For 50 years, the pro-life movement has tried to overturn Roe v Wade.

They succeeded this year, but it didn't have quite the impact that I think a lot of the pro-life movement thought it would.

And part of that is because they really have ended up with state proposing laws that are quite radical.

And when when you have a ten year old child in Indiana who is raped and cannot get an abortion in that state, I think most people recoil in horror.

And I think that hurt the Republicans.

Every time somebody wins big, be it Democrats or Republicans, they take it as a mandate and jump off the cliff with it.

And that's exactly what the Republicans did.

Deborah, do you think this is Trump's over or is he because he's running for president?

Will he come back?

Are Republicans sick to death of him?

It's hard to answer that question.

I mean, I'm thankful to Donald Trump because he was a gift that kept giving during the midterms.

And I really believe that he's going to be the Republican Party's nominee.

It'll be interesting to see if that happens.

Like Liz Cheney said, there will be a split and there'll be a new party created because there's so many moderate Republicans that don't want to go with him.

This was not a red wave.

It was a rogue wave.

You know, I said on this program before, the pro-life side, as well as the pro-choice side, do not realize every time, every time there's been a direct vote by voters on an issue, pro-choice, pro-life, pro-choice side has always won.

And they have a very short memory.

And it doesn't matter what state, what region.

People have this conflicted view.

They want women to retain the right to make the decision, but they do want abortion limited and discouraged.

So it's a real it's a paradox and it remains that way.

And they don't realize in 89 we were wiped out and in '90 and '92 we still suffered.

And I've said before, this election wasn't the last time.

This is going to be a problem.

It's going to be continuing problem in those states that have the most restrictive.

There's going to be incredible fights in the state legislatures.

This is not over by any means.

Can I just single quick?

It amazes me that consistently polls show exactly what Ann said.

You know, 68 to 70% of the American public.

Wants abortion safe and legal, regardless of party, regardless of party.

Look at Florida, for example.

You're in a red state, Debra, right.

You're in (Debra: Yes) MIssouri right now So you're in a red state.

And that's sort of attached to a band of red states from Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, etc.. Texas, of course.

And there are ban, there were trigger bans on abortion in 20 states.

13 of them passed or haven't gotten to count state constitutional legality.

They're still in the court.

Seven are fighting.

I just wonder if the the pro-life movement is is taking it too far, not realizing they should be quiet and let the states do what they're going to do and not get involved in court fights and give the Democrats hand the Democrats a reason for women and people of color to go out and vote in the in the presidential election in two years.

That's what they should do.

That's probably not what they're going to do.

Right, but doesn't anybody in that movement think before they act?

All to the contrary, though.

I mean, you take a state like Kansas, which is ah, it is a red state, but it has a two, now a two term governor in Laura Kelly and abortion was on the ballot in August in Kansas.

Laura Kelly runs she runs affirmatively there.

You look at a state like Michigan, that's a swing state.

Every one of the statewide offices went to Democrats and they ran affirmatively on abortion.

So I don't know if Republicans are going to get the message of where the American public is, but the more they continue down this track to make the most restrictive laws possible, it is going to function against them at the ballot box.

The Senate went ahead and just passed the a bill to make it federal law that LGBTQ people have civil rights and they are protected by the Constitution.

But they didn't do that for women.

Well.

I think that actually the LGBTQ lobby is very strong in many ways, and we've discussed that here on this show.

You know, the money and how far along they LGBTQ rights have gone compared to women's rights.

And they obviously went ahead with that because they had the votes for that.

Then they didn't have the votes to protect women once again.

What does that say about the Democratic Party, though?

I don't necessarily think it was the Democratic Party that was the obstructionists with not having protection for women.

It says that the Democrats can't break the filibuster is what it says.

I mean Thank you.

I think that I'm, look I am not going to pit one constituencies rights against another.

What I will say is that women are more than 50% of the vote, and among Democrats.

They're a strong part of the vote.

And that we have to it says that we have to, one, elect more women and elect more men who support women and women's rights.

The fact is that we do have protections for women.

We have Title seven of the Civil Rights Act.

No, but I'm talking protections for women's right to control their own reproductive health.

Oh, okay.

So you're talking about specifically about reproductive rights.

Well, the Republicans overreach every time they try to do something on abortion.

There are many Western European countries that have more restrictions on abortion that the United States had.

And if the Republicans look to those as models and put more restrictions on late term abortions, certain kinds of abortions, you know, even abortions for sex selection, which most people object to.

But you know, that that is what they do.

It's an all or nothing endeavor.

And part of that is because for much of the pro-life movement, it's a moral issue.

There is no gray, it's black or it's white.

And that's that's part of the problem, because in politics, very few things are black and white.

Yeah.

You raise sex selection abortion, which, you know, people talk about select eye color abortions.

Those are if they exist at all.

They're .... Of course.

Of course.

The bottom line is this is about a woman's right to choose and privacy.

It's a privacy issue.

And we're seeing that with the Supreme Court and concern about privacy and what does this mean?

So if you have the right to privacy, you have the right to make this decision.

With your doctor.

About your body without government in your bedroom.

Right.

But I do want to turn before we get off this subject and go to the next to DeSantis in Florida.

Very popular governor just won reelection by 20%, but he's already getting flak because he signed a law with a 15 week ban, which is certainly not the choice of most pro-choice women.

Pro-Choice organizations.

I see it as that's three months.

I see it as in except in cases where the fetus is going to die in in vitro in in the womb and things like that.

I see that as a reasonably workable solution.

But the pro-life people are giving him hell.

And is that going to are they going to be able to?

No pun intended.

TRUMP him and and and get him not, you know, block his path to the Republican nomination?

Most of the public agrees with the 15 weeks is very comfortable.

The vast majority of the public, even those, they're pro-choice.

That's actually a step back from Roe.

It is.

Most people believe that Roe should be the law of the land.

So let's get clear about what the baseline is, because what DeSantis has proposed is a step back from that.

I don't really care whether he gets grief.

I think that the nation frankly doesn't know Ron DeSantis yet.

But they will come to know him and they'll look at him as just a dressed up version of Donald Trump.

But again, at 15 weeks, 99% of abortions happen.

So before 15 weeks.

So it really does take care of most cases except for life of the mother and severe fetal abnormality Part of the problem with the life of the mother exception and go well that sounds good is that we have doctors here in Missouri right now that don't know when the life of the mother is at stake and are taking women right up to where they almost die, to give them an abortion because they're afraid of being prosecuted and they're following the law.

So that's really not an adequate exception to the law.

All right.

Now let's turn to women and work.

In 2022, hybrid and remote work turned from a pandemic necessity to an accepted way to work in jobs that don't require in-person attendance.

The Harvard Business Review reports women want to work fully or partly from home 10% more often than men.

But is remote work good for women's advancement?

And does it support women's work life balance?

Studies show the flexibility is helpful, but there's no data yet on how it impacts women's careers.

Hybrid or remote work has been good for business because it saves on rent and boosts worker productivity.

So, Linda, let's let's get it out in the open at the beginning.

Obviously, women who work at Wal-Mart, women who drive trucks, women who are construction workers, etc., etc., and that this would in many cases be low income women don't have that choice.

But for the women who do is working from home here to stay?

I think it is.

And I think for all of the reasons that you said in the opening.

Employers like it because it cuts their costs.

If you don't have to have an office space for each and ever, every employee.

That means that you spend less on rent.

It means less on on a lot of things.

And I think for women, flexibility is has always been the key for women in terms of their work choices.

And even working class women having the ability to be able to work hours that fit with her family responsibilities was important.

And I think for many women who are in the knowledge sector, it's much easier, much more flexibility if at least part of the week you can work at home.

And I think it's that flexibility that is the key.

But I wonder I mean, we've we've gone for almost three years now to working from home in our little shop.

But I'm not in a stage of my career where I'm looking to move up.

I'm there.

So I worry about face time.

Isn't that really important in climbing the ladder, Donna?

It is.

And I think there's a cautionary note out there for, you know, for women, whether they have the ability, for example, in a remote environment, it's difficult enough to speak up when you're in a room full of men who are crosstalking But to do that online, I think poses some challenges.

Also, there is something that, you know, that men where they have this kind of camaraderie and whether you have a mentor and how those things work in the workplace, that actually could be quite harmful for women to be in a purely remote environment, even as women are seeking that kind of flexibility.

And so I think the jury is still out about whether this in the long run is going to be this kind of environment, is going to be helpful or harmful to women at work.

But I have to say, I mean, the women I talked to who don't have to buy clothes anymore, don't have to get out on the road anymore and have the ability to balance and manage their their families where they're still bearing the principal responsibility.

I think that this is a great option for those women.

Recognizing your caveat at the at the beginning, for the vast majority of women who are in low wage work, this is not an option for them at all.

You know, if you have to be in a restaurant just to serve.

That's not going to be an option for, you.

No, or working on a construction site or any number of careers that require you to be out on the road.

But Ann it certainly is a great time saver not to have to fight traffic, especially if you live in a city where traffic is bad.

And that's getting to be just about every city in America.

But getting back to your question about does it hold women back?

I actually teach a seminar on who gets ahead and why and a lot of it is about skills women don't learn at their father's knee.

That men do.

How they act and react to mistakes and bad situations for themselves, or when they're managing people and somebody screws up and how they're acting, reacting with the bosses when there are problems, how they keep their bosses informed, how they manage their time again, what they choose to put in writing and when the timing is very important, if they have special ideas, they want to have the courage to put it in writing early so that they get credit and someone else doesn't take credit.

The other thing is negotiation skills.

Women do not understand how good they are at negotiation and because they don't like to play it as a game.

But it is.

So teaching negotiation is something I've done for decades that really helps women get ahead.

But everything that you have just outlined suffers if you're working remotely.

Still applies, though, and again, creating the reasons to get together face to face.

While it won't be in the same ongoing situation, but key events that you set up or say, you know, this really does require a face time because you want to brainstorm, it'll be better face to face.

and really shine when they are face to face.

And Bonnie, I had a thought when looking at this topic, you know, it might take larger businesses, so could be smaller, medium sized businesses that we're going to need our managers and our owners of these businesses to maybe think about equal time at home, that it's not just up to you.

You'll come in the office two days a week, you'll be home three days a week, no matter what your gender is.

All right.

From women and careers to one woman making history in her career, Associate Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson the first African-American woman to sit on the Supreme Court and the court's first former public defender.

Her confirmation was also historic for other reasons.

For the first time, white men are not in the majority, and four women sit on the nine member bench.

In nominating Brown Jackson, President Biden fulfilled one of his campaign promises to appoint a black woman to the Supreme Court.

But how will she change the court rulings while she's still in the progressive minority?

How do you see her impact so far?

Or will she be able to make any impact until the justices go back to it, which will take decades, until there's a majority of progressives on the court?

It's a great question to see what impact she can make.

She certainly seems to be very comfortable with writing dissents.

And putting her opinion out there.

When she doesn't have to.

And I really like that because I think dissent is very, very important, especially with the balance of the court the way it is now, and that that dissent is put in writing and put out there for the public.

And she also she's incredible.

She does a lot of questioning.

I mean, I think I used to cover the court.

I covered it for nine years for a radio network.

But she is right in there getting to the legal reasoning that the other side is basing.

What will be the majority decision on.

Is that, Donna, is that how will future justices use that?

And what is her impact on women of color?

Justices come on to the court and they all have a lot a range of different styles.

I mean, I've listened to a couple of the arguments thus far and have been really impressed with her incisiveness on the on the questions and, and the way that she's functioned on the court and that she's chosen to enter the court.

And I agree with Debra I think that you get a sense of her thinking in reading her dissents and that, after all, a dissent is a way to work yourself to a majority opinion.

And so we're going to be able to see that in the short term and not have to wait until there's a changeover in the court.

But thus far, I think that she really is making her mark.

And you know, as a woman of color who is also a low grade lawyer, I really I mean, I'm just so impressed and proud and, you know, hang on her words when she's when she's hearing an argument.

Tell me about the feeling among black women.

Are they just thrilled to finally have someone who looks like them on the Supreme Court?

I can't speak for all black women, but the ones in my circle, I can tell you, are extremely proud of her and may not even really fully grasp or understand the court or pay attention to it all the time.

But the mere fact that she's there to give voice to to women, to black women, to people who've sat outside of the system, who are now in a system I think is really is really important.

And and it's going to be with us for a long time.

And, you know, she may be the first, but she surely shouldn't be the last.

I think the thing that Kitanji Brown Jackson has that is most important is something that I think we all saw during her confirmation process.

And that was her personality.

She is somebody who has a really winning way about her.

And even though this is a very deeply divided court ideologically, I think the justices behind the screen, when they're not up there hearing the cases, do develop relationships with each other.

And I think that she has a chance to develop her relationship with the chief justice, who is now often a swing vote, along with some of the other more conservative justices.

And I think that manner that she has of trying to persuade people in a winning way and not necessarily in a confrontational way, I think is going to serve her very well.

You are reminding me of the very close friendship between Justice Scalia and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who are, of course very much on the opposite side of most Constitutional questions yet also close friends.

And I just hope and pray that the divisiveness that's going on in our country right now and the tribalism doesn't sink into the judiciary branch of our federal government.

Well, sadly, it already has.

I mean, if you look at the approval ratings for the court, they are the lowest that they've ever been, because I think the court has intruded in some political ways that have impacted the way that the public sees the court.

And I think that the chief justice does have an interest in, you know, sort of moving the court back to that place where it was perceived at least, you know, sort of less politically by the public and I think that that would serve the court well, especially given the divisiveness that we've seen in the other branches of government.

I mean, anyone who read ran for Dobbs decision had to see that Justice Samuel Alito really hates the left.

I mean, it was just it was scathing.

Their ratings fell.

The Supreme Court ratings fell right after Dobbs.

I mean, that was the driver on that.

But we also haven't touched on the fact that she really is looking at the Constitution from a very different perspective, even than the progressives that were there.

And now is part of this originalists.

And I would love to see her de facto now write a piece on what her view of the Dobbs decision was and how she would have done it differently.

I think that would be very enlightening.

Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't walk down that path if I were her.

I wouldn't step on that minefield Not happening hypothetical.

Not going to happen.

That's it for this edition.

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See you next week.

{MUSIC } Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.