-Howes: Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr.

Michael Gervais, one of the world's top high-performance psychologists who spent his career training the minds of Olympians, world-record holders, and the best performers on the planet.

Today he's here to teach you how to master your inner-self talk, how to embrace things that you're afraid of going after, and how to turn your hardest setbacks into growth opportunities.

Dr.

Gervais: Do you believe that you have power over how you navigate life.

Not what life is going to give you, but do you believe you have the power to do it?

And that is squarely pointing to psychological skills.

Howes: Let's dive in and let the class begin.

Not even a month ago, you were in a full-on car crash, head-on collision with someone going 70-plus miles an hour.

You're going around 40 miles an hour.

And talk about, you know, having to try to perform under pressure.

You know, a life-or-death situation.

I'm just curious, since this just happened, was there anything within a second, a split second, that you've learned over the last 20, 30-plus years from your mental performance training that you felt supported you in that moment at all?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

It's cool.

In the moment-- Any moment that has-- requires speed and accuracy and is as fast as that, as a head-on collision, just forces you to be all present.

It's a forcing function to be completely tuned in that moment.

So I'm, when that happens, completely engaged in the present moment.

But that's interesting in and of itself.

But the takeaway was right afterwards.

Howes: Yes.

How do you respond?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah, it's-- Howes: How you respond to situations that are not good in life, when things don't go your way, when it's scary, when it's...?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah, I think the overwhelming sentiment is that I'm really grateful for a couple of things.

One is I'm not training to be an athlete anymore, but I invest in my physical health, and my body stood up in the right way to that collision.

So I'm grateful that I had the right kind of prerequisites physically to be able to withstand a pretty radical collision.

The second is I've been training my psychology and emotional fitness, if you will, for a long time, and I'm really grateful.

I can understand at a different level how a post-traumatic stress experience takes place for people.

So I'm really grateful that I was able to work with the experience and navigate it and, like, move to a growth approach as opposed to a stress syndrome.

Howes: Yeah, because some people, when they have-- let's call it a failure or a breakdown or an injury, whatever it might be, whether they're an athlete or an executive or an everyday human being... They get fired from their job or they have something that is a "breakdown," let's call it.

They retreat back into fear.

They limit themselves.

They start thinking smaller as opposed to expanding their thinking capacity.

They try to retrieve back to what they know as comfortable, rather than taking certain risks to try to break through into a higher performance level.

What strategy or technique did you use to continue to expand yourself forward, recover from the experience, and go through, you know, the reflection of it all, but then say, "Okay.

I'm going to... I'm not going to not go out and drive again.

I'm going to keep pushing forward.

I'm going to keep expanding.

Or I'm going to do things in a way that allows me to live life fully rather than retreat"?

Dr.

Gervais: It's a good framing.

Yeah.

Think about just the science of post-traumatic stress disorder for just a moment.

There's-- We could list off the symptoms and kind of the requirements for that syndrome.

But what is less talked about or even researched is post-traumatic growth.

Howes: Hm.

Dr.

Gervais: So what you're asking about is, like, if you had an option, which we all have options, based on our experiences and our psychology.

So this was another moment that fit well with the model that I've already invested in for the last, call it, 30 years.

Howes: Yeah, but now you're the brain scientist who's doing open brain surgery and saying, "Okay.

Do these theories actually work?"

You know, after this.

Dr.

Gervais: I think that's the point, Lewis, is that take any smaller setback or challenge or adversity or whatever, or any kind of mundane life experience... Like, how do I take one more rep at the gym?

Howes: Yes.

Dr.

Gervais: Right?

How do I stay in a hard conversation just a little bit longer?

So it's these small, little moments that just add up where you respond based on your training.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Gervais: Humans-- This is a first principle for me.

And this is, I don't know, somewhat controversial, I think.

Is that humans fall to the level of their training.

We don't rise to moments.

And I know you might think differently about that, because I think I've heard you say we rise to the occasion, but I can't remember if that was you.

Howes: I think I agree with you.

You rise to the level of your training.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

And so when it comes to psychological training... ...your entire community right now has a training module, has a training way, and it's like the way that they're framing this conversation, the way they framed the cold eggs that they ate or... So we're always training something.

Howes: Yes.

Dr.

Gervais: And being aware of how we are framing and navigating our psychology is really important.

So the whole thing begins with awareness.

And without awareness of how you're working with your thoughts and emotions and feelings... Without awareness, I don't think you have a chance to be anywhere close to what you're capable of.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Gervais: And so it does begin with awareness.

We're always training ourselves, you know, one direction or not.

And so it showed up right.

And so I'm super grateful.

Howes: That's good.

What would you say-- I'm just curious.

You work a lot with elite athletes, peak performers.

Of the world's population, what would you say is the percentage of people that are living a peak performance life?

Dr.

Gervais: You know, it falls under a normal bell distribution, a normal curve.

You know, there's the half-percenters that are widely known, world-recognized.

And then there's the 5% and 10%, the 15%, kind of that upper quadrant, if you will.

And it's no different than in any population, any endeavor.

Like, there's the half-percenters in basketball.

There's the half-percenters in handball.

There's the half-percenters in music.

Most people fall within one or two standard deviations of the mean.

84%, to be exact.

Right in that number.

Of people are kind of similar in the way they approach life.

And that's what the average looks like.

84%.

Howes: 84%.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

I would say are what we would call, right, humming around the average.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Dr.

Gervais: So people that fundamentally commit their lives towards any aim-- and the word is fundamentally "commit"-- have a chance of knowing how good or extraordinary they can be in any endeavor.

And if your endeavor is handball, you have to fundamentally commit.

If your endeavor is joy and happiness, purpose-driven, you know, community-minded, whatever it might be.

So the word, though-- The phrase is "fundamentally commit."

Most people don't even come close to fundamentally organizing their life around what matters most.

Howes: Wow.

They don't make a decision of what matters most.

Dr.

Gervais: That's right.

Howes: And they don't go all the way in on that.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

And that fundamental decision is dangerous.

There's a danger line to sort out.

And I want to enter this conversation two ways because I think if you knew what I knew about youth sport... you would not challenge your kids in the way most people do.

And I think that that sounds like, "What did you just say?"

Howes: Wow.

What is it that you know about youth sports that all parents should know?

Dr.

Gervais: It's really dangerous.

Howes: How so?

Dr.

Gervais: In youth sport, in the U.S., we are equipping amateur, untrained, well-intended, for the most part, amateur coaches with the psychology and emotional development of our children through a social force-ranked, stacked, statted, observed, critiqued, and judged sport.

Fill in the blank of whatever sport it is.

Force-ranked, statted.

Now, I love that ecosystem.

I love subjective and objective measures of growth.

I love that you get to see how you compare to other people.

I love that there is, like, rules to engage in.

And I love that there is a process and a performance-based approach to invest in to be your very best.

I love that part of it.

But when you put the psychological and emotional well-being of young developmental minds and parents that are a little stressed, a little overwhelmed... They want the best for their kids.

And you've got these amateur coaches in the U.S.

with the most tender part of the growth arc of psychology, the young.

Oof!

Like, it's a dangerous proposition.

Howes: Yeah, what should parents be thinking about, then, if they want to put their kids into youth sports or they want them to have activities to support their growth?

How can they combat against the youth sport system the way it's built now?

Dr.

Gervais: Parents need to be the greatest buffer.

You know, I do not suggest that-- My son is in youth sport.

I love youth sport.

I'm just saying it's dangerous.

Howes: Okay.

You're not saying take your kids out of soccer.

Dr.

Gervais: No.

Sport has taught me so much.

Sport is my working laboratory, both personally, as a kid, as a young adult, even now.

And it's been my working laboratory as a sports psychologist, you know, for working with the world's best for a long time.

So I don't have anything bad, but it is dangerous.

So what do parents need to do?

They need to be the greatest buffer.

They need to install all of the protective factors that will help their children frame, that will help their children work with all of the heartbreak that comes from the majority of kids who don't get what they want.

And I'm talking about like-- "If you knew what I knew," that statement, about the dangers of sport, you wouldn't push your kids because there's 0.01% of kids that make it in the pros.

0.05%.

Somewhere in that range.

Of kids that make it to the pros.

Howes: So a lot of them will be failures.

Dr.

Gervais: They will not achieve the hopes and dreams in sport that they might have.

But if you take it as a working laboratory to sort out how to work with mistakes, how to understand relationships, how to be a-- the greatest teammate to yourself and the greatest teammate to other people that you possibly can... That ecosystem is rich, but you've got kind of knucklehead coaches.

And I had a conversation with one of my son's coaches, and he's like, "So how did the season go for you guys?"

And I said, "For my son, it was really hard.

For us, I'm really grateful that my wife and I were able to, you know, be buffers and be kind of resilient shepherds, if you will, for him."

And he looked at me with like-- "Well, that was a little too honest."

I said, "Yeah, it was-- You made some questionable calls but gave us plenty of fodder to work against."

Howes: Yeah, I mean, at the same time, it's like these coaches probably aren't well-equipped or well-trained to lead 7- to 8-, 12-, 15-year-olds psychologically, emotionally, with the standards they have of, like, trying to win every game, the pressures they have of, like, their jobs on the line.

Or some of them don't even get paid.

So it's also figuring out how do we figure out how to support coaches that don't have the tools and training... Dr.

Gervais: That's exactly the right question.

Howes: ...to be parents, as well as great coaches who aren't getting paid?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah, we don't have the right investment.

In the U.S., if we believe sport is a great ecosystem for growth, which we do.

Look at the numbers.

You know?

If you're in the bottom one third of sport as a boy in high school, it's even more dangerous.

Howes: Yes.

Dr.

Gervais: Being on the playground, not getting picked, being the one that everyone rolls their eyes if you stumble, fall.

You're trying your best, but you're like-- You're causing a slowdown.

Howes: That was me.

I was picked last in elementary school, and it's like-- it was a formative moment that drove me to win at all costs.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah, so you figured out how to work with that pain, that rejection, that thing.

Howes: Yes, in a destructive way that got results, but it didn't make me feel fulfilled or happy or, like, at peace.

It made me feel like I always had to prove myself that they were wrong about me.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

So you built what's classically called a performance-based identity... Howes: Yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: ...that I am what I do relative to how well you do what you do.

Howes: Sure.

Dr.

Gervais: And so that performance-based identity is really tricky.

It can fuel you to be great at something.

Howes: Yes.

Dr.

Gervais: But it will never allow freedom.

Howes: And I didn't have peace until I hit 30 when I-- Everything started to fall apart in my life.

That's when I started to reflect and start doing healing work.

That gave me a sense of a different mission of life in the last 13 years, and it's allowed me to have a lot more peace and freedom and be driven to accomplish and serve at the same time.

Dr.

Gervais: And, you know, when people hear you say that, there's this fine line between, like, well, he did it.

He drove himself to be, you know, one of the best in the world at da-da-da, fill in the blanks.

And, like, "Okay.

I'll sacrifice that for me, too."

And it's kind of like saying the person who has all the toys, big boats, big cars, big house, big whatever.

Like, and they say, "Well, I had to grind.

And it was an unhealthy grind.

I don't want that for you.

There's a better way."

And they're like... Howes: "I want that."

Yeah, yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: So how?

The question is, how?

And you were asking the question, like, what do we do with parents?

You know, what do we do with coaches?

We have to invest.

You have-- Either you have to invest in your psychology to understand how you work so you have a chance to invest in another person's ability to grow.

It starts with self discovery.

Howes: Yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: And in our-- Just talk about coaches for a minute here.

We don't invest in youth sport coaches the way that other countries do.

There's a certification, a training model, minimum thresholds.

And here, it's kind of who do you know.

"You're free.

Do you want to help out?

Oh, you played pro?"

Or, like, "Oh, wow.

You're willing to?

Okay.

Come on in."

And it's not right.

It's one of the greatest ecosystems to understand who you are and how you can grow.

Howes: And at the same time, I guess American sports develop some of the greatest athletes in the world.

Dr.

Gervais: Because we have so many.

Howes: That and maybe because the stakes are so high at a young age.

Not saying it's good.

But maybe it's because there's such high expectations at such young ages.

Not saying it's healthy, but maybe that also develops people to succeed under pressure at a high level.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

You're right for two reasons.

One, it's a pathway out for some.

It's an inspired way through for some.

But we're so sloppy because we have "next human up" approach.

So the washout in the U.S.

is uncanny.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Gervais: And so you've got to be extraordinary... Howes: Yes.

Dr.

Gervais: ...to make an NFL team.

You have got to be extraordinary.

And we don't really have a youth development program.

We got a college program.

It's good.

You know?

But we don't really have... So these are the most fit, most extraordinary, most powerful humans that have endured public humiliation, a lot, to get to that place.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Gervais: And, you know, that was probably-- I've been in the NFL I think for like 14 or 15 years now.

As a sports psychologist.

Not as an athlete.

Howes: Yeah.

What are you?

A punter?

Are you a kicker?

Dr.

Gervais: Want to be clear.

And, like, just to be on the roster, you have to be an extraordinary athlete.

And there's no two ways about it, is that the heartbreaks that they've gone through to get to where they are.

But they have made-- and I do want to talk about this-- a fundamental commitment.

And this is, I think, a really interesting takeaway for your community, maybe even for you, Lewis, is that when you-- when you pull back the curtain on what happens in an NFL franchise, the vulnerability and courage expressed at the danger line... You know, I'll hold my place with danger line for a minute.

Every day is remarkable.

Not just Sunday.

Howes: No.

Every day.

Dr.

Gervais: Every day.

On Monday when you're potentially being called out for mistakes that you've made and/or celebrations, you know, because... Howes: In front of your peers.

Dr.

Gervais: In front of your peers and your coaches.

Remember.

Your peers are trying to take your job.

Your coaches are deciding if you play or not.

And to grow, you have to move to the danger line.

You have to move to that messy edge, that place where... Howes: Risk.

Dr.

Gervais: ...everything could fall apart, or it could be a breakthrough.

And you have to be practiced at going to that danger line.

And most of us-- I mean, when's the last time-- I'll take you out of it because I think you're practiced at it.

But for most people, we don't get to the danger line at work, in the living room at home, with our friends and, you know, like, our loved ones.

We don't practice getting to that emotional and/or physical messy edge.

And so we're unpracticed at getting to the required state to unlock what you're capable of.

They are not.

Howes: And they do it physically, mentally, emotionally, all these different things.

And when you add the physical element on a daily basis, it's even more risky because so many guys get injured playing that sport or you have to endure years of potential injuries that you did not get or you overcame and you were able to come back from and continue on the danger line of potential injury and see guys go down that could have been you, and it's like, "I'm going to keep fighting.

Dr.

Gervais: That's right.

Howes: And then I'm going to face humiliation the next day from my coaches or from a peer or from the media.

And I'm going to get called out and I have to keep going."

Dr.

Gervais: That's why the best leaders and the best coaches understand what it takes, and they do not add to it.

They support then challenge, so, in that order, those two ingredients are incredibly important for anyone to become who they're capable of.

Support then challenge.

How do you support somebody?

You get to know them.

You care about them.

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Gervais: You really invest in understanding them so that you know how you can properly challenge them.

Support then challenge.

The best coaches really do understand that.

Because you're trying to challenge them as often as possible to get to the danger line.

Howes: You're trying to help them rise to the occasion, but you have to understand and support them first before you challenge them, is what I'm hearing you say.

Dr.

Gervais: Well, rise to the occasion.

No, I think it's rise-- It's not rising.

It's readying yourself psychologically to go to a place that is super unsettling because, by definition, you're not good at doing the thing on the messy edge.

Howes: So you got to get comfortable at doing it.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah, and it sounds so trite.

Get uncomfortable-- Or get comfortable being uncomfortable.

It's really foundational.

Howes: Yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: But I don't think it ever gets comfortable.

Howes: You just get more familiar.

You're gonna be okay after you do it.

Like, it gets a little bit easier, but it's still-- The easier it gets, it's, like, you have to find new levels of danger.

Dr.

Gervais: That's right.

Howes: Emotionally, psychologically, relationally, spiritually, physically.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

Howes: To get to the next level.

Dr.

Gervais: And that "danger" word is super provocative, but it does feel dangerous when you're at the edge.

Howes: It feels like your life is going to be over sometimes when you're having a vulnerable conversation with your partner and you feel like, "I can't say these words."

Dr.

Gervais: Well, because we know, you know, that our brain doesn't have redundancies built in.

Like, oh, this segment is for an emotional conversation and this segment is for a saber-tooth tiger.

Like, it's the same fight/flight mechanisms.

And I think we don't-- We under-celebrate fight/flight.

We know those two.

Freeze.

And submit.

That fourth one, we under-celebrate.

Howes: What does that mean?

To submit?

Dr.

Gervais: As soon as it gets really intense and the emotional centers of your brain are louder than the reasoning parts of your brain and the emotions are running the show, that we fight, we flee, we freeze, and we submit.

And what submitting is, is, like, we kind of roll over to power or authority and say, "Oh.

I get it.

Oh, yeah.

Now I see.

You're right, you're right, you're right."

But we have a big idea that we want to present or we're complaining about something in the hallways, and somebody says, "Are you going to talk to Lewis about it?

And are you going to, like, tell him how you feel?"

And, say, you're the supervisor.

"Yeah.

Yeah."

And then I set the meeting with you.

It takes a little courage.

And then I set it with you.

And then I say, "Hey, Lewis, there's this thing I was, you know, thinking about, and I'm not sure it's a good idea or not."

I'm already hedging.

And then I say, "But, you know, I need to tell you because some other people are kind of thinking about it."

And then I actually tell you, and then you go, "Well, hold on."

And now you challenge me.

Do I fight?

No.

I'm not gonna fight you.

Do I freeze?

No.

I'm not gonna freeze.

I can't leave.

Hoo!

Body just heated up a little bit.

I'm starting to shake a little bit.

Howes: That doesn't feel good.

Yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: Ooh.

My heart pounding a little bit.

What's about to happen?

And then I submit.

"You're right.

You're right.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh.

Ooh.

I didn't think about it that way."

But I'm not being honest.

I'm just reflexively doing whatever it takes to be okay in that moment.

Howes: To survive.

Dr.

Gervais: Literally, that's the survival mechanism.

Fight, flight, freeze, submit.

And in the hallways of enterprise and corporate and, you know, intense environments is that submitting is a real choice.

And it's unfortunate because we never feel really good about any of those responses.

Howes: So what's the response we should have that's not fight, flight, freeze, or submit?

Dr.

Gervais: So first is understanding how those mechanisms work.

As soon as you interpret something to be dangerous or you're in an environment that is physically actually dangerous, your brain lights up in all the ways that I don't need to recount.

But that's important, the way either you perceive it or it actually is dangerous.

You light up.

So you can extend the danger line by the way you perceive, okay?

So if I perceive, like, boy, you hold my future in my-- You hold my future in your hands.

Howes: What I say next could determine if I'm here in this job or not.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

So I've given a lot of risk to your opinion of me.

And we name that for fun.

FOPO.

Fear Of People's Opinions.

Right?

And so we'll get into that in a minute.

But that's one way.

You change the way that you're framing.

So if it's like-- Wait.

Hold on.

What I hold to be more important is working from first principles.

So first principle for me is something that matters to me.

I've thought deeply about how I want to operate on this planet.

And if it's honesty, let's say, or it's having somebody else's back or it is fill in the blanks.

Whatever a first principle could be.

Then I need to operate from that, even in dangerous situations, even in emotionally risky situations.

So that rearranges the danger line because of the perception.

Then you need to practice being in those intense environments as often as you possibly can, and that's what elite sport does.

Youth sports is meant to be that way, but that's what elite sport does, is it fundamentally creates an environment for people to get up on the edge, because that's where growth happens.

And then the third is having a whole set of psychological skills while you're in that emotionally charged environment to regulate.

Breathing, self-talk, you know, knowing how to work with yourself, if you will.

And what I'm working on, like, to be able to say maybe in the next 10 years with you is, like, I'm really working on being unbothered.

Howes: By it all?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

Howes: Anything that comes your way or...?

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

Like, I know what is foundational to me.

I know what I'm working toward.

And, like, just be unbothered.

Like, I don't know how this thing works.

You know, the Chinese farmer is an unbothered approach.

You're familiar with that Zen koan.

Unbothered.

I just really love that.

Howes: That's for next season.

Dr.

Gervais: Yeah.

And I'm really working on playing more.

I'm a really intense person.

Howes: Yeah.

Dr.

Gervais: And I love that.

It's good for me.

But I get really intense quickly, and so, like-- Howes: Gotta have more fun in your life.

Dr.

Gervais: I do want to play more.

Maybe next time, it's, like, be unbothered, play more.

Howes: Yeah.

That's good.

That's good.

There's a lot of science behind play and how it helps you get into flow more, right?

It's like being more-- Instead of, like, so focused and intense all the time, it's like being a little lighter, you know?

It's like have a little fun.

Dr.

Gervais: That's right.

Howes: Loosening up.

Dr.

Gervais: That's right.

Howes: Well, I want to acknowledge you, Mike, for the constant service you have to everyone.

Dr.

Gervais: Thank you.

Howes: You're constantly trying to help people be better through your skills, through your science, through your research.

And, again, emotional regulation, I think, is the key to living a fulfilling life.

And you give people skills and tools on how to mentally and emotionally regulate, which I think is the most powerful thing.

To love deeper, to live better, and to be your best self.

So I want to acknowledge you... Dr.

Gervais: Thank you.

Howes: ...for constantly serving in the ways that you do.

Dr.

Gervais: And I'm more about the process of the whole thing than the outcome of it.

So greatness is an honest commitment to who you're capable of being.

Howes: If today's conversation moved you, there's so much more where that came from.

Make sure to scan the QR code on the screen or visit greatness.com/tv to follow "The School of Greatness" podcast and sign up for our free newsletter.

And stay tuned for more episodes on "The School of Greatness" right here on public television.

Again, my name is Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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