>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> NATO HAS TREATED THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA VERY UNFAIRLY.

>> TRUMP'S MESSAGE TO EUROPE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

SO, AS WORLD LEADERS HEAD TO THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, CAN THE TRANS ATLANTIC ALLIANCE BE SAVED?

I ASKED ROBERT KAGAN.

HE SAYS THE WORLD IS ENTERING ITS MOST DANGEROUS PERIOD SINCE WORLD WAR II.

>>> THEN -- >> WE CAN CONJURE SPIRITS FROM THE PAST AND THE FUTURE.

>> "SINNERS," THE GENRE-BUSTING FILM THAT TOOK THE WORLD BY STORM.

ONE OF ITS STARS, JOINS ME ON HIS AWESOME CAREER.

>>> PLUS -- >> IF YOU LOOK INTO WHAT'S BEING WRITTEN ABOUT THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN CASE, ALL OF THESE THINGS IF YOU'VE READ ENOUGH PROPHECY, YOU CAN HEAR ECHOS OF THIS LONG HISTORY OF PROPHECY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> END OF DAYS, RUBY RIDGE, THE APOCALYPSE AND THE UNMAKING OF AMERICA.

WHAT THE RUBY RIDGE STANDOFF FORETOLD ABOUT AMERICA'S FUTURE.

♪ ZBLNKTS AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FOUNDATION, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLEY WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR -- PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ -- COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

80 YEAR OF WORLD ORDER UNDER UNPRECEDENTED -- LED BY THE U.S.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

THAT'S THE ASSESSMENT OF EUROPEAN SECURITY EXPERTS WHO ARE GETTING SET TO HOST WORLD LEADERS AND DIPLOMATS AT THE PIVOTAL MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, WHICH STARTS TOMORROW.

EVERY DAY, UKRAINE IS FIGHTING FOR ITS SURVIVAL.

RUSSIA HAS AGAIN POUNDED THE COUNTRY WITH DRONES AND BALLISTIC MISSILES, FURTHER BATTERING ITS ENERGY SYSTEM IN THE DEAD OF ITS COLDEST WINTER AT WAR.

NATO MEMBERS HAVE AGAIN PLEDGED MORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, BUT THEY KNOW THEY MUST INSIST ON THEIR OWN SECURITY, TOO.

ARE THE DAYS OF RELYING ON AMERICA THEN WELL AND TRULY OVER?

MY FIRST GUEST BELIEVES SO AND HAS A DIRE WARNING FOR AMERICANS ABOUT THE CHAOS AND DANGER TO COME.

ROBERT KAGAN IS A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE FOREIGN POLICY SCHOLAR.

HE CALLS HIMSELF NOW A ORMER REPUBLICAN.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON, ROBERT KAGAN.

>> THANK YOU.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU'RE LITERALLY IN A DEEP FREEZE BECAUSE THERE'S SNOW BEHIND YOU.

SO, TELL ME WHAT YOU REALLY THINK IS AT STAKE RIGHT NOW.

YOU JUST HEARD ME QUOTE EUROPEAN -- THE EUROPEAN REPORT -- BEFORE THE SECURITY CONFERENCE.

WRECKING BALL, DEMOLITION MAN, WORLD ORDER UNDER DESTRUCTION, ALL OF THAT.

IS THAT HYPERBOLE?

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

AND ACTUALLY I'M, SORT OF, IMPRESSED THAT THE MUNICH PEOPLE PUT OUT THAT REPORT BECAUSE I THINK IT'S RIGHT ON THE MONEY.

BUT IT'S UNUSUALLY UNDIPLOMATIC, I WOULD SAY.

BUT IT'S CERTAINLY CORRECT, AND I THINK IT REALLY IS A WAKEUP CALL FOR EUROPEANS.

AND IT OUGHT TO BE FOR AMERICANS AS WELL.

>> BEFORE I GET TO YOUR ARTICLE THEN, HOW DO YOU THINK EUROPE SHOULD FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT REPORT AND THOSE TERMS BECAUSE IT IS, YOU KNOW, A REAL COME-TO-JESUS MOMENT, IF I CAN SAY THAT NOW, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN A YEAR SINCE J.D.

VANCE ESSENTIALLY THREW DOWN THE GAUNTLET TO ALLIES AT MUNICH LAST YEAR.

AND ESSENTIALLY THIS YEAR HAS BEEN ONE WHERE TRUMP HAS DONE AMERICA FIRST IN A VERY INTERESTING WAY.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK EUROPE IS COMING TO THE REALIZATION, BUT THEY CERTAINLY NEED TO COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER -- NOT ONLY CAN THEY NO LONGER COUNT ON THE UNITED STATES TO PROVIDE THE SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT IT HAS BEEN PROVIDING FOR 80 YEARS, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOW A HOSTILE AND POTENTIALLY PREDATORY NATION UNDER DONALD TRUMP.

SO, EUROPE IS NOW IN THE PREDICAMENT OF FACING AN AGGRESSOR AND A PREDATORY EMPIRE TO ITS EAST BUT ALSO NOW A POTENTIALLY PREDATORY BUT CERTAINLY HOSTILE EMPIRE TO ITS WEST.

AND SO THAT MEANS EUROPEANS REALLY NEED TO MUCH MORE QUICKLY THAN I THINK THEY INTENDED STRENGTHEN THEMSELVES BOTH MILITARILY AND ECONOMICALLY SO THAT THEY CAN PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS AND THEIR IDEOLOGY, THEIR BELIEF IN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AND LIBERALISM, AGAINST THE REAL CHALLENGES THAT ARE NOW COMING FROM ALL DIRECTIONS.

>> IN CASE ANYBODY MISSED IT, YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING TWO PREDATORY POWERS.

AND YOU'RE PUTTING ON THE SAME LEVEL THEN THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA, BECAUSE YOU MEAN THAT HOSTILE FORCE, WHICH IS QUITE AN EXTRAORDINARY THING FOR A TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN TO SAY.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE HEART OF SOME OF YOUR CRITICISM, DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE HEIGHT OF THE PREDATORY -- IN YOUR WORDS -- EXPERIMENT BY DONALD TRUMP WAS OVER GREENLAND?

AND HE SAID OVER AND AGAIN THAT HE HAS TO ACQUIRE IT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

AND EUROPE STOOD UP AS ONE AND SAID, NO.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S THE START OF A PUSHBACK THAT'S MEANINGFUL?

>> YEAH.

I THINK -- I THINK THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, EUROPEANS ARE ACTUALLY CONTEMPLATING SENDING TROOPS TO DEFEND AGAINST AN ACT OF AMERICAN TERRITORIAL AGGRESSION AGAINST AN ALLIED NATION LIKE DENMARK, YOU KNOW, REALLY -- IT SHOWED THAT IF YOU DO STAND UP TO DONALD TRUMP, SOMETIMES YOU CAN BE SUCCESSFUL.

BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK THE GREENLAND ISSUE IS OVER.

TRUMP HAS BEEN FIXATED ON GREENLAND SINCE HIS FIRST TERM.

SO, THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT THAT EUROPEANS HASTEN TO STRENGTHEN THEMSELVES IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE.

TRUMP IS CLEARLY SENSITIVE TO ECONOMIC PRESSURES.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE BIGGEST EFFECT ON HIM WAS THE SPIKE IN THE BOND MARKET, QUITE HONESTLY.

AND SO -- BUT EUROPEANS DO HAVE A LOT OF ECONOMIC LEVERAGE IF THEY'RE WILLING TO USE IT AND STOP REFERRING TO DONALD TRUMP AS DADDY.

>> OH, BOY.

THE FAMOUS BAZOOKA IN TERMS OF A TRADE WEAPON.

SO, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

YOU WRITE IN YOUR ARTICLE, TRUMP HAS MANAGED IN JUST ONE YEAR TO DESTROY THE AMERICAN ORDER THAT WAS, AND HE HAS WEAKENED AMERICA'S ABILITY TO PROTECT ITS INTERESTS IN THE WORLD THAT WILL BE.

SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AMERICA NOW.

FOR A MINUTE LET'S PUT ASIDE RESPONSIBILITIES AS AN ALLY.

AND NOW HOW DOES THIS ACTION BY TRUMP AFFECT AMERICA?

WHY IS AMERICA WEAKENED, IN YOUR VIEW?

>> I THINK UNFORTUNATELY AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED THE ENORMOUS BENEFITS THAT THE UNITED STATES GETS BOTH STRATEGICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY FROM ALL OF ITS ALLIANCE RELATIONSHIPS AROUND THE WORLD.

THE UNITED STATES IS POWERFUL, BUT IT'S NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN ALL THE REST OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD PUT TOGETHER.

ONE OF THE GREATEST SOURCES OF AMERICAN POWER HAS BEEN ITS ALLIANCES IN EUROPE AND IN ASIA AND ITS PARTNERSHIPS ELSEWHERE.

AND IF THE UNITED STATES IS NOW GOING TO TURN AGAINST THOSE POWERS, AS IT IS, AND TREAT THEM AS HOSTILE PLAYERS AND COMPETITORS IN THE SAME -- AND REALLY IN SOME RESPECTS HAVE A MORE FAVORABLE VIEW OF RUSSIA AND CHINA THAN OF OUR OWN ALLIES, THEN THOSE ALLIES ARE GOING TO CEASE TO BE OUR ALLIES.

AND THEN THE UNITED STATES WILL NOT HAVE ACCESS TO BASES AND FREE ACCESS TO MARKETS AND THE KIND OF GENERAL POWER THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS ENJOYED IN THE WORLD AND THAT WE -- IF WE MOVE INTO A GENUINELY MULTIPOLAR WORLD WHERE THERE ARE NO RELIABLE ALLIES, THAT'S GOING TO WEAKEN THE UNITED STATES AND MAKE EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR 80 YEARS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE AND MUCH MORE DANGEROUS.

THE PROSPECT OF WAR CLIMBS CONSIDERABLY IF OUR ALLIANCE STRUCTURE IS BEING DESTROYED, AS IT IS BY DONALD TRUMP.

>> AND ACTUALLY THE ALLIANCE STRUCTURE IS WHAT SETS AMERICA APART, CERTAINLY FROM THE OTHER SO-CALLED WANT TO BE SUPERPOWERS, CHINA, RUSSIA.

THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE KINDS OF ALLIANCES.

YOU QUOTE -- WHO SAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT GAP IS NOT ECONOMIC POWER BUT IT IS AMERICA'S GLOBAL SYSTEM OF ALLIANCES.

WE JUST TALKED A LITTLE BIT AT IT.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS TO AMERICA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD IF THOSE ALLIANCES ARE -- AND WE'VE SEEN POLLS SAYING MANY ALLIES TRUST AMERICA LESS.

THE PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES, THE LEADERS OF THOSE COUNTRIES, TRUST AMERICA LESS.

WHAT HAPPENS TO AMERICA AND TO THE WORLD IF THAT, YOU KNOW, TRIED AND TESTED SYSTEM OF ALLIANCES FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS ESSENTIALLY FALLS APART INTO A MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WORLD.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, IF IT'S EVERY NATION FOR THEMSELVES, THEN JUST TAKE THE QUESTION OF BASES FOR INSTANCE.

THE UNITED STATES HAS BASES IN EUROPE, WHICH IRONICALLY IT DOESN'T USE -- HAS NOT BEEN USING FOR THE DEFENSE OF EUROPE BUT RATHER TO PROJECT POWER INTO THE MIDDLE EAST, INTO CENTRAL ASIA AND ELSEWHERE.

A LOT OF WHAT DONALD TRUMP SEEMS TO WANT TO DO WHEN HE WANTS TO BOMB COUNTRIES DOES ULTIMATELY RELY ON THE WILLINGNESS OF OTHER COUNTRIES TO PROVIDE BASES TO THE UNITED STATES.

YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING FROM AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER.

SO, YOU CAN IMAGINE AMERICA LOSING ACCESS TO THOSE BASES, WHICH SIGNIFICANTLY WILL WEAKEN AMERICA'S STRATEGIC POSITION IN THE WORLD TO DEAL WITH ALL KINDS OF CONTINGENCIES.

THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

BUT SO IS THE QUESTION OF ACCESS TO RESOURCES.

RIGHT NOW THE OCEANS ARE PRETTY OPEN BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES IS ABLE TO KEEP THEM OPEN BECAUSE IT HAS THE COOPERATION OF MOST OF THE WORLD.

BUT IF THE WORLD BEGINS TO REGARD THE UNITED STATES AS A HOSTILE AND AGGRESSIVE AND DANGEROUS POWER, WHICH IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS PORTRAYING, THEN WE WON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF ACCESS.

AND IN A SENSE, WE WILL HAVE TO FIGHT FOR EVERYTHING THAT WE CURRENTLY ENJOY FOR FREE.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT GREENLAND AND YOU SAID IT'S NOT OVER YET.

I HAD ON THIS PROGRAM THE FORMER NATO SECRETARY GENERAL WHO ALSO WAS THE FORMER DANISH PRIME MINISTER.

DENMARK, YOU KNOW, HAS SOVEREIGNTY OVER GREENLAND, AN AUTONOMOUS PROVINCE.

BUT HE SAID -- AND I'LL PLAY IT FOR YOU IN A SECOND -- THAT HE REALLY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS CONTINUED TO ALIENATE ALLIES WHILE ALSO CONCURRENTLY WARMING UP TO VERSARIES, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA.

AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT THE RUSSIA/UKRAINE DYNAMIC SEEN FROM THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.

>> I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS DEMONSTRATED A CLEAR WILLINGNESS TO MOVE TO GET A PEACE DEAL OR A CEASEFIRE.

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON ZELENSKYY THAN ON PRESIDENT PUTIN.

>> SO, THAT WAS ANDERS RASMUSSEN.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

>> WELL, I MEAN, THERE IS ONE SIMPLE ANSWER WHICH IS THAT ZELENSKYY IS A WEAK, DEPENDENT ACTOR.

HE'S DEPENDENT ON THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS.

AND THEREFORE TRUMP HAS ENORMOUS LEVERAGE OVER HIM.

PUTIN IS NOT WEAK.

PUTIN DOESN'T -- CAN'T BE PUSHED AROUND BY DONALD TRUMP.

AND THEREFORE HE'S WILLING TO CONCEDE WHATEVER PUTIN WANTS.

BUT I WOULD GO BEYOND THAT TO SAY THAT THE TRUTH IS TRUMP DOESN'T WANT TO BE DEFENDING UKRAINE.

HE WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO WRITE UKRAINE OFF.

THAT'S CERTAINLY WHAT HIS, YOU KNOW, ADVISERS WANT.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE IN THE PENTAGON WANT.

THEY WANT TO CUT UKRAINE OFF.

AND THEY ALSO WANT TO CUT OFF U.S.

ALLIES.

THE PROBLEM FOR TRUMP IS IT'S, KIND OF, EMBARRASSING TO OPENLY BE DEFEATED BY VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AND HE DOESN'T LIKE THAT.

THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE A FRAUD RIGHT NOW.

THE ONLY PURPOSE OF NEGOTIATIONS IS TO SAVE FACE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

HE KEEPS BEGGING PUTIN TO THROW IN THE BONE AND PUTIN DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S JUST CLEAR THAT TRUMP WANTS TO CUT EUROPE LOOSE ENTIRELY.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE THINKS HE CAN, SORT OF, CARVE UP THE WORLD WITH THE OTHER EMPERORS.

YOU KNOW, HE WANTS TO BE ONE OF THE WORLD EMPERORS.

HE CAN CARVE IT UP WITH EMPEROR PUTIN AND EMPEROR XI.

>> WELL, ANDERSON RASMUSSEN ALSO SAID THAT EUROPE NEEDS TO LEARN TO BE A SUPERPOWER AND LEVERAGE ITS 450 MILLION TO 500 MILLION STRONG POPULATION, ITS VERY, VERY BIG ECONOMIC WEIGHT, AND TO BUILD UP ITS MILITARY.

ALSO YOU'VE HEARD THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA TALK ABOUT TRYING TO GET A BROAD COALITION OF MIDDLE POWERS, SO TO SPEAK, TO ACTUALLY REPLACE OR GO AROUND A NO LONGER RELIABLE AMERICAN ALLY.

CAN YOU JUST TELL US WHETHER EITHER OF THOSE ARE FEASIBLE?

HOW WOULD THEY WORK?

>> WELL, OF COURSE THEY'RE FEASIBLE.

I THINK THIS -- AGAIN, PEOPLE FORGET THAT, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL OF THE POWERS IN EUROPE TODAY USED TO BE THE STRONGEST POWERS IN THE WORLD.

NOT SO LONG AGO.

I MEAN, GERMANY WAS CLEARLY ONE OF THE STRONGEST POWERS IN THE WORLD AND FOUGHT TWO WORLD WARS AGAINST ALMOST EVERYONE AND ONLY LOST BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES GOT INVOLVED.

AND FRANCE WAS A GLOBAL EMPIRE.

BRITAIN, YOU KNOW, A HUGE QUANTITY OF THE WORLD AT ONE TIME.

AND AFTER WORLD WAR I, WHICH WAS A DEVASTATING WAR, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO AMERICAN SECURITY GUARANTEE, EVERYONE HAD TO RE-ARM, AND THEY DID RE-ARM.

AND THEN THEY FOUGHT ANOTHER WAR.

BUT THE POINT IS EUROPE IS CAPABLE OF RE-ARMING.

THEY JUST HAVEN'T HAD TO AND WE HAVEN'T WANTED THEM TO.

I THINK IT'S WHAT WE'RE CALLING THAT.

WE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE EUROPE EMERGING FROM WORLD WAR II AS THE SAME KIND OF GREAT POWERS WHO HAD LED TO CONFLICT IN THE PAST.

BUT ARE THEY CAPABLE OF DOING IT?

OF COURSE THEY ARE.

THEY HAVE THE ECONOMIC WHEREWITHAL.

THEY HAVE THE POPULATION.

THEY HAVE THE HIGHLY EDUCATED POPULATION, TECHNOLOGICALLY CAPABLE POPULATION.

IT REQUIRES THEM TO REALLY, I THINK, CHANGE A LOT OF THEIR, SORT OF, SOCIOECONOMIC STRUCTURE UNFORTUNATELY.

BUT NECESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF TAKING/MAKING SACRIFICES WHEN YOU NEED TO.

AND THIS IS A MATTER OF NECESSITY FOR EUROPE.

>> LET'S REVERT TO WHERE YOU ARE, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

YOU WROTE A PREVIOUS BOOK CALLED "REBELLION."

YOU TALK ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF, SORT OF, A LIBERAL SYSTEM INSIDE AMERICA.

WHERE DO YOU THINK IS THE STATE OF AMERICAN POLITICS, DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM, HUMAN RIGHTS, RIGHT NOW?

>> OH, I THINK WE ARE ONE BIG STEP INTO DICTATORSHIP ALREADY.

IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT ANY INSTITUTION IN THE UNITED STATES IS REALLY PREPARED TO STAND UP TO DONALD TRUMP.

IT SEEMS THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO STAND UP TO DONALD TRUMP ARE AVERAGE AMERICAN CITIZENS IN MINNEAPOLIS AND ELSEWHERE.

AND GOD BLESS THEM FOR THAT.

BUT THE U.S.

CONGRESS, BOTH PARTIES, ARE UNWILLING TO REALLY FIGHT TRUMP.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BECOME THE PARTY OF DICTATORSHIP.

SO, I THINK WE ARE ONE DEEP FOOT INTO DICTATORSHIP.

AND I AM WORRIED, AS I HAVE SAID, AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN POINTING OUT, ABOUT WHETHER WE WILL EVEN HAVE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS IN 2026, LET ALONE IN 2028.

I THINK TRUMP HAS A PLAN TO DISRUPT THOSE ELECTIONS, AND I DON'T THINK HE'S WILLING TO ALLOW DEMOCRATS TO TAKE CONTROL OF ONE OR BOTH HOUSES, AS COULD HAPPEN IN A FREE ELECTION.

>> HIS BORDER CZAR, TOM HOLLMAN, HAS BEEN IN MINNESOTA.

HE NOW SAYS THE I.C.E.

SURGE OR THE I.C.E.

PRESENCE IS CONCLUDING.

ALSO YOU KNOW THAT SOME SIX REPUBLICANS BROKE FROM TRUMP POLICIES TO JOIN A VOTE AGAINST THE TARIFFS AND AGAINST HOW THEY'RE BEING USED.

YOU KNOW THAT THE GRAND JURY FAILED TO GET ANY INDICTMENT AGAINST WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION WANTED, WHICH WAS THOSE SIX OR SO SENATORS AND OTHERS WHO URGED SOLDIERS NOT TO OBEY ILLEGAL ORDERS.

THINGS SEEM TO BE MOVING.

>> I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS ONE STEP FORWARD AND TWO STEPS BACK WITH DONALD TRUMP.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT THEY'RE FINISHED WITH THEIR PLAN.

THEY'VE MADE A TACTICAL RETREAT IN MINNESOTA.

I -- THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SEND I.C.E.

INTO ELSEWHERE.

I.C.E.

IS BEING FUNDED AT AN UNBELIEVABLE -- I THINK I.C.E.

IS NOW PAID MORE THAN THE U.S.

MARINE CORP.

IS IN TERMS OF DOLLARS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO BE A MASSIVE FORCE.

AND TRUMP HAS MADE VERY PLAIN, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO HIM WHEN HE SAYS THERE ARE 15 ELECTORAL AREAS THAT THEY WOULD LIKE EPUBLICANS TO CONTROL, LEST THE DEMOCRATS QUOTE, UNQUOTE STEAL THE ELECTION FROM THEM, BY WHICH THEY MEAN THEY JUST LOSE THE ELECTION.

AND THEY DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

I THINK THAT WE ARE STILL VERY MUCH IN DANGER.

YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT SIX REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE VOTED ON A MEASURE ABOUT TARIFFS WITH CANADA.

WHAT ABOUT THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE WHO PRETTY MUCH GO ALONG WITH EVERYTHING THAT TRUMP SAYS?

WHAT ABOUT MIKE JOHNSON, THE REPUBLICAN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WHO BASICALLY IS SUPPORTING TRUMP'S DESIRE TO INTERFERE IN THESE -- >> WELL, ROBERT KAGAN, I'M HEADED TO THE -- >> SO, I DON'T THINK -- >> I'LL PUT SOME OF THOSE QUESTIONS TO SOME OF THE AMERICAN OFFICIALS WHO I'LL BE HOPEFULLY SPEAKING TO AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE THIS WEEKEND.

AND YOU RAISED VERY IMPORTANT POINTS PARTICULARLY ABOUT ELECTIONS.

ROBERT KAGAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> NEXT TO THE OSCARS RACE AND THE MOST NOMINATED FILM IN ACADEMY AWARD HISTORY.

"SINNERS" HAS STUNNED AUDIENCES AND CRITICS ALIKE.

IT WAS WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY RYAN KUGLER.

IT TELLS THE STORIES OF TWINS IN 1950s MISSISSIPPI -- SUPERNATURAL EVIL.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS EXCERPT FROM THE TRAILER.

>> THERE ARE LEGENDS OF PEOPLE WHERE THE GIFT OF MAKING MUSIC SO TRULY -- CONJURE SPIRITS FROM THE PAST AND THE FUTURE.

-- FAME AND FORTUNE.

♪ WILL SOMEBODY TAKE ME ♪ >> BUT IT ALSO -- BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH.

>> VETERAN ACTOR DELROY LINDO IS NOMINATED FOR BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR.

HE WAS BORN HERE IN LONDON, BUT LINDO FOUND SUCCESS ON STAGE AND ON SCREEN IN THE UNITED STATES, INCLUDING STARRING IN MANY SPIKE LEE FILMS.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM LOS ANGELES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOUR FILM IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.

OBVIOUSLY RECOGNIZED BY ALL THE AWARDS AND ALL THE CRITICS.

WHAT WAS IT AND WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION WHEN YOU FIRST READ THIS INCREDIBLE SCRIPT?

>> THE ORIGINALITY, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SET IN 1932, I FELT IT WAS A VERY, VERY CONTEMPORARY FILM.

AND IT WAS TRULY A VERY PARTICULAR ONE-OF-A-KIND NARRATIVE.

AND I -- I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT.

I WAS AWARE OF THAT IMMEDIATELY ON READING THE SCRIPT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER?

YOU PLAY DELTA SLIM, VERY COMPLEX.

IT'S REALLY, REALLY AN OBVIOUSLY INTERESTING -- THERE'S ALMOST, LIKE, A PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT THAT YOU AND THE OTHERS, SORT OF, DISPLAY, SORT OF GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

TELL US ABOUT THE CHARACTER AND HOW YOU APPROACHED, YOU KNOW, CREATING IT.

>> IT WAS A STEP BY STEP BY STEP PROCESS ESSENTIALLY, STARTING WITH MY READING TWO BOOKS, "BLUES PEOPLE," BY MARY BARAKA, WHO WAS LEROY JONES WHEN HE WROTE THE BOOK, AND "DEEP BLUES" BY ROBERT PALMER.

THAT WAS MY INTRO INTO THE PROJECT, READING THOSE BOOKS AND GETTING A SENSE OF THE LIVES AND THE LIFESTYLES OF MANY OF THE MUSICIANS FEATURED IN THOSE WORKS.

I THEN STARTED EXPOSING MYSELF TO MUSICIANS SUCH AS -- HOUSE, MUDDY WATERS, HOWLING WOLF, IKE TURNER, MUSICIANS WHO COME FROM THAT REGION, MISSISSIPPI DELTA.

AND ADDITIONALLY LISTENING TO -- WATCHING A LOT OF DOCUMENTARY FILM THAT FOCUSED ON PEOPLE FROM THE DELTA.

SO, IT WAS STEP BY STEP BY STEP BY STEP BY STEP.

YOU KNOW, TO STATE THE OBVIOUS, IT WAS NOT A LINEAR PROCESS.

>> MM-HMM.

>> RIGHT?

I WAS GATHERING ALL OF THIS DATA AND THEN INCORPORATING IT INTO MY OWN PROCESS, AS I STARTED WORKING ON THE MATERIAL.

>> SO, OBVIOUSLY THE FILM SHOWS THE -- AS YOU OUTLINED -- THE CONNECTION BETWEEN MUSIC AND HISTORY.

MUSIC IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE FILM.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT ALMOST IS A CHARACTER IN THE FILM.

THERE'S A CHARACTER CALLED SAMMY -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

HIS GUITAR BECOMES NOT JUST A SYMBOL OF CULTURE AND SURVIVAL BUT AN INSTRUMENT OF VIOLENCE TO ACTUALLY TRY TO PROTECT HIS COMMUNITY.

I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP WHERE YOUR CHARACTER, DELTA SLIM, SPEAKS TO SAMMY ABOUT THE HISTORY AND THE POWER OF THE BLUES.

>> THE BLUES -- RELIGION.

WE BROUGHT THIS WITH US.

THE MAGIC, WHAT WE DO, THE VICTORY -- >> IT'S ACTUALLY MESMERIZING EVEN LOOKING AT THOSE SMALL AND SHORT CLIPS.

WE TALKED ABOUT HOW YOU STUDIED A LOT OF MUSIC.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WAS ABLE TO NARRATE, TO TELL, THAT PERHAPS DIALOGUE COULDN'T?

>> PERHAPS CONVEY A FEELING, AN EMOTIONAL FEELING, RESULTING, PERHAPS, IN A VISCERAL RESPONSE FROM THE AUDIENCE.

AND I LIKE THAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT ALWAYS ABOUT BEING ABLE TO VERBALIZE.

AND I THINK THAT I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE AUDIENCES, OBVIOUSLY, BUT I THINK IT IS A VISCERAL RESPONSE THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE HAVING.

AND ON SOME LEVEL, THAT'S ACCOUNTING FOR THE AUDIENCES VIEWING THIS FILM MULTIPLE TIMES.

>> LET'S GET TO THE MAIN CHARACTERS OF THE FILM, THE TWIN BROTHERS, SMOKE AND STACK.

THEY BOTH HAPPEN TO BE PLAYED BY ONE ACTOR, MICHAEL B. JORDAN.

THEY RETURN HOME TO THIS HOUSE FROM CHICAGO.

THIS IS THE PREMISE OF THE FILM, TO BUILD A NEW LIFE.

AND WE HAVE THIS CLIP WHERE YOUR CHARACTER AT A TRAIN STATION, AND YOU MEET THE TWINS.

AND THEY ASK YOU TO COME AND PLAY IN THEIR NEW JUKE JOINT.

>> NO, NO.

I'M NOT MEETING -- I'M MEETING ONE OF THE TWINS.

>> ONE OF THE TWINS.

HERE IT IS.

>> COME PLAY AT OUR JUKE TONIGHT.

>> YEAH, I WISH I COULD.

I'M GOING TO BE IN -- TONIGHT, SAME AS I AM EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT.

>> THEY AIN'T PAYING YOU $20 A NIGHT.

I KNOW THAT.

>> YOU AIN'T PAYING NO $20 A NIGHT.

YOU PAYING $20 MAYBE TONIGHT.

TOMORROW NIGHT?

THE WEEK AFTER THAT.

NO.

I'VE BEEN IN -- EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS AND I'M GOING TO BE THERE ANOTHER TEN YEARS AFTER THAT AT LEAST.

GET AS MUCH CORN LIQUOR AS I CAN DRINK.

I CAN'T ASK FOR MORE THAN THAT.

>> NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE ACTING -- I MEAN, LOOK, IT'S KIND OF AN OBVIOUS QUESTION.

BUT WITH MICHAEL B. JORDAN AS HE WAS PLAYING TWO CHARACTERS.

I KNOW THAT CLIP NOW WAS WITH YOU AND ONE CHARACTER.

BUT WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

>> IN THE CONTEXT OF WORKING ON A SCENE, YOU KNOW, I WAS FOCUSING -- AND THIS MAY SOUND VERY SELFISH.

I HOPE IT DOES NOT.

I DON'T MEAN IT TO SOUND SELFISH.

I WAS FOCUSED ON WHAT I HAD TO DO.

MICHAEL B. AND MILES, PLAYING PREACHER BOY, WERE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY HAD TO DO.

AND WE CAME TOGETHER AS PROFESSIONALS.

AND IT WAS VERY, VERY MUCH.

IT WAS FUNNY.

IT WAS VERY STIMULATING.

AND WE FOUND THINGS BETWEEN US IN THE SCENE THAT MADE SCENE LIVE AND BREATHE IN A VERY RICH WAY, I HOPE, FOR THE AUDIENCES.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO NOT QUITE THE BEGINNING, BUT LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR PAST WORK BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD A VERY LONG, VERY EXPANSIVE CAREER.

YOU'VE WORKED WITH SOME OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL DIRECTORS.

YOUR LONGTIME COLLABORATOR, SPIKE LEE, AS WELL.

YOUR CHILDHOOD I FIND INTERESTING.

I HADN'T REALIZED YOU WERE BORN HERE.

YOU MOVED FROM HERE TO CANADA.

YOU GREW UP IN LONDON, APPARENTLY.

YOU DIDN'T REALLY FEEL BRITISH.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE BEING A YOUNG BLACK BOY IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU'RE CONFLATING SOME THINGS.

I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE TO WORK VERY QUICKLY BECAUSE YOUR WORK CARRIES A LOT OF DIFFERENT AREAS.

BUT YOU'RE CONFLATING A NUMBER OF THINGS.

IT'S NOT THAT I DIDN'T FEEL BRITISH.

AND I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOUR SOURCES ARE FOR THIS INTERVIEW.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU TO TRY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR ME?

I'M THE SON OF A JAMAICAN WOMAN, WHO WAS PART OF THE WIND RUSH GENERATION, THE WIND RUSH PHENOMENON, WHICH I'M SURE YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH.

AND WE MOVED AROUND A LOT WHEN I WAS YOUNG.

WE MOVED QUITE A BIT.

I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ENCAPSULATE, CHRISTIANE, MS.

AMANPOUR -- IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ENCAPSULATE THE IN A FEW SECONDS MY EXPERIENCE GROWING UP IN ENGLAND.

WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT I'M WRITING A MEMOIR RIGHT NOW, AND YES I'M PLUGGING BY BOOK.

I APOLOGIZE.

BUT IN THE BOOK, IN THE PROCESS -- IN THE PROCESS OF WRITING THE BOOK, I AM ABLE TO DECONSTRUCT MORE -- WITH A LOT MORE DEPTH WHAT MY EXPERIENCES WERE, HOW -- WHAT MY MOM'S EXPERIENCES WERE, HOW BEING IN ENGLAND IMPACTED OUR RELATIONSHIP.

SO, I'M GOING TO DO A REALLY -- PLEASE BUY THE BOOK.

>> YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

LISTEN.

FIRSTLY, I APPRECIATE YOUR PRECISION.

I'M GLAD YOU CORRECTED SOME OF THE THINGS I GOT WRONG.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO CALL ME MS.

AMANPOUR.

YOU CAN CALL ME CHRISTIANE.

I'M VERY INTERESTED.

YOU SAID WIND RUSH GENERATION.

MAYBE NOT EVERYBODY REMEMBERS.

BEAR WITH ME.

IT'S THE GENERATION WHO WERE BROUGHT TO BRITAIN, RIGHT, FROM THE CARIBBEAN ABOARD THE WIND RUSH TO HELP REBUILD THIS COUNTRY AFTER THE DEVASTATING IMPACT OF WORLD WAR II.

AND THEN THERE WAS A LOT OF CONTROVERSY ABOUT HOW THEY WERE TREATED AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THEY WERE TREATED RIGHT AFTER THIS HISTORY OF HELPING THIS COUNTRY.

SO, LET'S EXPLORE A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE WRITING IN YOUR MEMOIR ABOUT THIS.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT ORIGIN STORY.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

SO, YOU'RE SPEAKING ABOUT THESE THINGS IN THE PAST TENSE.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE DYNAMICS THAT ARE IMPACTING THE WIND RUSH GENERATION AND THEIR OFFSPRING, OF WHICH I AM A PART, ARE PROBABLY STILL VERY CONTEMPORARY DYNAMICS THAT ARE AT PLAY IN BRITISH CULTURE TODAY.

WHAT I AM INVESTIGATING AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT MY MOM.

I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT MYSELF.

BECAUSE I WAS -- I, MYSELF, WAS NOT AWARE OF THE WIND RUSH PHENOMENON UNTIL 2001 WHEN I WAS IN LONDON DOING -- WORKING ON A FILM, "WONDROUS OBLIVION" DIRECTED BY PAUL MORRISON.

AND THROUGH THE PROCESS OF WHEN WE WERE REHEARSING IN PREPRODUCTION, BEFORE WE HAD ACTUALLY STARTED FILMING, I CAME ACROSS THE BBC WIND RUSH DOCUMENTARIES.

AND I WAS REALLY STUNNED BECAUSE I HAD NEVER HEARD ABOUT THAT WIND RUSH BEFORE.

SO, MY -- PART OF MY INTENT IN WORKING ON MY BOOK IS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS, WHAT THE WIND RUSH PHENOMENON MEANS, TO ME PERSONALLY AND MY MOTHER AND TO UNDERSTAND, AS A RESULT, ASPECTS OF MYSELF AND MY MOM, THAT I WAS THERETOFOR NOT AWARE OF.

THAT'S WHAT THE PROCESS OF WRITING THE BOOK HAS GIVEN ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO INVESTIGATE.

>> GOT IT.

SO, WHAT DID AMERICA GIVE YOU THAT BRITAIN COULD NOT AS AN ACTOR?

I MEAN, ALSO HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT RECEIVING YOUR FIRST ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATION 50 YEARS INTO YOUR CAREER.

YOU'RE 73.

YOU DON'T LOOK IT, BUT YOU'RE 73.

AND YOU'VE GOT YOUR FIRST ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATION.

>> THERE WERE PROBABLY THREE QUESTIONS IN THERE, CHRISTIANE.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO GET THROUGH THIS INTERVIEW.

OKAY.

I'LL ASK THE FIRST ONE FIRST.

>> YES, YOU WILL.

>> WHAT DID AMERICA GIVE YOU THAT UK COULDN'T?

>> OPPORTUNITY.

OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE, INVESTIGATE MY CREATIVE SELF AND THEN TO HAVE A COMMERCIAL CAREER.

THAT'S WHAT AMERICA HAS AFFORDED ME.

THAT WAS YOUR QUESTION, CORRECT?

>> THAT WAS THE FIRST BIT OF A VERY LONG COMPOUND QUESTION.

THE SECOND BIT IS, HOW DOES IT FEEL AT THE AGE OF 73 TO GET YOUR FIRST ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATION?

YOU ALSO FEEL -- RIGHT?

>> I WILL NOT ANSWER.

I HAVE TO SAY THIS.

I'M VERY -- I'M HAPPY I'M MAKING YOU LAUGH AND THAT WE'RE SHARING A LAUGH BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY -- YOU DON'T -- WELL, I WON'T SAY THAT.

BUT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT YOUR WORK FOCUSES ON SUCH SERIOUS, RIGHTLY SO, TOPICS, I'M GLAD YOU GET TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF LEVITY FOR A SECOND.

>> YEAH.

>> THE AWARD -- THE NOMINATION, I'M SORRY.

THE NOMINATION HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY MEANINGFUL.

AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT PART OF THE EXPERIENCE OF GETTING THIS NOMINATION, I'M FEELING REALLY TOUCHED AND MOVED BY THE OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT AND LOVE THAT I'M RECEIVING FROM FANS WHO ARE REALLY HAPPY FOR ME.

AND THAT'S BEEN VERY MUCH A PART OF THE EXPERIENCE OF RECEIVING THIS NOMINATION.

BUT THE SHORT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT IT FEELS VERY GOOD.

>> GOOD.

I'M GLAD TO HEAR IT.

ON A WIDER, YOU KNOW, SCALE, "SINNERS" HAS ALSO MADE HISTORY BY BECOMING THE MOST NOMINATED FILM AT THE ACADEMY AWARDS EVER.

IT'S GOT 16 NOMINATIONS.

YOU TACKED LKED ABOUT IT ALSO B CONTEMPORARY -- >> YES.

>> -- IN THE CURRENT CULTURE.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS LEVEL OF RECOGNITION FOR THE FILM, WHICH IS LED PREDOMINANTLY BY A BLACK CAST AND CREW, SAY ABOUT THE WHERE THE CULTURE IS HEADED NOW?

>> I'M NOT SURE.

AND I'M NOT SKIRTING YOUR QUESTION.

I WOULD SAY THAT CLEARLY THE RECOGNITION, BOTH FROM THE ACADEMY AND BOTH FROM AUDIENCES GLOBALLY, IS AN AFFIRMATION FOR THE VISION OF RYAN KUGLER.

THAT'S -- THAT'S ONE.

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THE FILM REPRESENTS A CULTURAL MOMENT.

IT'S A CULTURAL -- IT'S TOUCHED SOMETHING IN THE ZEITGEIST THAT RESULTS IN -- PARTIALLY RESULTS IN -- ITS SUCCESS AND THE FACT, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT AUDIENCES ARE GOING BACK MULTIPLE TIMES TO SEE THIS FILM.

PERSONALLY, I THINK THAT THE FILM -- I THINK IT'S A WORK FOR THE AGES.

I THINK THAT IT WILL BE STUDIED ON UNIVERSITY COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

BUT AS FAR AS THE FUTURE IMPACT OF THE FILM -- AND I'M NOT SURE YOU ASKED ME THIS.

BUT AS FAR AS THE FUTURE IMPACT OF THE FILM, ONLY TIME WILL TELL.

BUT I DO HAVE A VERY STRONG FEELING THAT IT WILL BE JUST AS IMPACTFUL IN FIVE, TEN YEARS FROM NOW BECAUSE I THINK THE WORK HAS THAT KIND OF MAGNITUDE.

>> IT REALLY IS INCREDIBLE.

LISTEN, THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH INDEED.

IT'S BEEN REALLY A PLEASURE -- >> THANK YOU.

>> -- INTERESTING, AND ENTERTAINING TO TALK TO YOU.

.

>> GOD BLESS YOU.

THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH.

AND I'M GLAD WE WERE ABLE TO SHARE SOME LEVITY.

>> YES.

>> GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL THE VERY, VERY BEST.

>> NOW WE REVISIT A MOMENT THAT SHOCKED A NATION.

THE 1992 RUBY RIDGE SIEGE.

IT WAS AN 11-DAY ARMED STANDOFF IN THE MOUNTAINS OF IDAHO BETWEEN FEDERAL AGENTS AND THE WEAVER FAMILY.

IT LEFT THREE PEOPLE DEAD.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "END OF DAYS," CHRIS JENNINGS ARGUES THAT THE EPISODE ROOTED IN APOCALYPTIC, RACIST, AND ANTI-GOVERNMENT IDEOLOGY HELPED PAVE THE WAY FOR TODAY'S CONSPIRACY-DRIVEN POLITICS.

WALTER ISAACSON SPOKE WITH HIM ON THE LEGACY OF THAT WIDELY TELEVISED EVENT AND WHAT IT REVEALS ABOUT AMERICA TODAY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND CHRISTOPHER JENNINGS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> IT'S BEEN 34 YEARS SINCE THE TRAGIC EVENTS AT RUBY RIDGE.

REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT THAT STORY WAS AND WHY YOU WANT TO REVISIT IT NOW.

>> SURE.

THE STORY IN ITS MOST BASIC FORM WAS A TALE OF A FAMILY WHO HAD MOVED TO NORTHERN IDAHO FROM IOWA TO SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM A CIVILIZATION THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS DOOMED.

THEY THOUGHT THE END OF THE WORLD WAS COMING.

AND THE MAN EVENTUALLY BECAME ENSNARED IN A MINOR CRIME, SELLING TWO ILLEGALLY MODIFIED GUNS.

THE SITUATION SPIRALLED FROM THERE.

THEY HAD A CONSPIRATORIAL VIEW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT CAME OUT OF A FUNDAMENTALIST BACKGROUND THEY HAD BEEN PRAYING AND WORSHIPPING IN THESE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCHES.

HE REFUSED TO COME TO CHURCH.

AND IN AN EXPENSIVE EFFORT TO GET HIM TO COME DOWN THE MOUNTAIN AND FACE THE MINOR CHARGE FOR THE GUNS, THE SITUATION DEVOLVED, AND THERE WAS -- HIS SON WAS KILLED AND A U.S.

MARTIAL WAS KILLED AND THEIR DOG WAS KILLED.

AND THE FOLLOWING DAY, HIS WIFE, VICTORIA WEAVER, WAS SHOT.

AND RANDY WAS SHOT.

VICTORIA DIED.

AND THEIR FRIEND, KEVIN HARRIS, WHO WAS LIVING WITH THEM, WAS SHOT.

AND A PROTRACTED SIEGE BEGAN WITH NONE OF THEM -- THE FAMILY WANTING TO COME OUT OF THE CABIN.

AND IT WAS REALLY A IC SITUATION.

I WANTED TO REVISIT IT BECAUSE I THOUGHT A LOT OF ELEMENTS THAT ARE ACTIVE IN OUR CONTEMPORARY POLITICAL LIFE ARE, SORT OF, THERE IN SEED FORM, THE CONSPIRACYISM, DEEP DISTRUST OF THE GOVERNMENT, ISSUES OVER WHEN AND WHETHER FEDERAL AGENTS CAN USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST CITIZENS, ALL THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY.

>> RUBY RIDGE BECAME A BIG SYMBOL BETWEEN THE CLASH BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND THE, SORT OF, END TIMES PROPHECY PHILOSOPHY, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

THAT'S RIGHT.

I MEAN, I THINK THE STORY HAS USUALLY BEEN TOLD AS A MATTER ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND GUN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT ACCESS.

BUT REALLY THE WAY I TELL THE STORY AND WHAT I THINK IS THE MOST RELEVANT THING AT PLAY IS THE RELIGION, THE THEOLOGY, THAT HAS BEEN PRESENT IN OUR NATIONAL LIFE FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT THIS PARTICULAR STRAIN OF FUNDAMENTALISM THAT BREEDS THIS CON SPEAR SIMMS AND DEEP DISTRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT.

WHAT HAPPENED AT RUBY RIDGE, A LOT OF THOSE THEORIES WERE VINDICATED IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HELD THEM.

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SAID THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO COME AND KILL YOU, AND IN THEIR CASE, THE GOVERNMENT DID COME KILL THEM.

>> REMIND US WHAT END TIMES PROPHECY, WHAT THAT MOVEMENT IS.

>> IN THE BOOK, I NARRATE HOW AMERICAN HISTORY HAS EVOLVED IN A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT WAY FROM, SAY, THE FOUNDING TO THE PRESENT, ESPECIALLY STARTING AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY AND REALLY ACCELERATING THROUGH THE 20th CENTURY, WHERE THE PREVAILING BELIEF AMONG A LOT OF AMERICAN EVANGELICALS AND FUNDAMENTALISTS ECLIPSED FROM A BELIEF THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD WAS COMING TO EARTH AND THE WORLD WAS GRADUALLY GOING TO BE PERFECTED THROUGH THE SPREAD OF THE COULD SAY GOSPEL TO AN APOC THE END OF THE WORLD AND NIGH AND YOU CAN MAP THE BOOK OF REVELATION ONTO THE DAILY NEWSPAPER AND SAY WHICH COUNTRY REPRESENTS WHAT BIBLICAL NATION.

AND THOSE BELIEFS REALLY SPREAD OVER THE COURSE OF THE 20th CENTURY, ESPECIALLY IN THE '60s, '70s, AND '80s, WHEN THE WEAVERS WERE GETTING DEEPLY INVOLVED WITH THEIR FAITH.

>> HOW IS IT RELEVANT TODAY?

>> SOME OF THE MOODS AND ATTITUDES THAT HAD BROUGHT INTO AMERICAN CHRISTIAN DOM AND INTO AMERICAN LIFE IN GENERAL DERIVED FROM END TIMES PROPHECY.

THIS BELIEF IN CREEPING GLOBALISM, THAT CONSPIRACY IS THE TRUE ENGINE OF HISTORY, THAT THERE'S A SECRET BATTLE OF LIGHT AND DARK PLAYING OUT BENEATH THE SURFACE OF EVENTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT ANYTHING FROM QANON TO WHAT'S BEING WRITTEN ABOUT THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN CASE, ALL OF THESE THINGS, IF YOU'VE READ ENOUGH PROPHECY, YOU CAN HEAR ECHOS OF THIS LONG HISTORY OF POPULAR PROPHECY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND WHY DID NORTHERN IDAHO BECOME SUCH A HAVEN?

>> WELL, IDAHO BECAME A HAVEN NOT JUST FOR FUNDAMENTALISTS BUT FOR ANYONE LOOKING TO, SORT OF, ESCAPE FROM WHAT THEY REGARDED AS AN AMERICA IN DECLINE.

IT WAS AN INEXPENSIVE PLACE TO LIVE.

IT WAS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE.

THE ARYAN NATION, WHICH PLAYS A KEY ROLE IN THIS STORY BECAUSE IT WAS THROUGH THEIR INVOLVEMENT WITH THE ARYAN NATION THAT THE WEAVERS ENDED UP IN LEGAL HOT WATER, ESTABLISHED ITSELF IN THE IDAHO PANHANDLE.

AND A LOT OF OTHER GROUPS THAT WOULD GO ON TO, SORT OF, FORM THE NUCLEUS OF THE MILITIA MOVEMENT.

AND THERE WAS A COUPLE OF, SORT OF, HARD RIGHT TERROR ORGANIZATIONS IN THE '80s, MOST FAMOUSLY THE GROUP CALLED THE ORDER WHO ARE COMMITTED ALL KINDS OF ACTS OF TERRORISM, BOMBINGS, ROBBERIES, MURDERS.

THEY WERE ALL CENTERED UP THERE.

IT WAS AN AREA WHERE PEOPLE TEND TO THINK OF THE OLD SOUTH AS THE HOMELAND OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN THE U.S., BY THE '80s -- MID '70s TO EARLY '90s, IT WAS THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST WHERE IT WAS HAPPENING.

>> HOW IMPORTANT IS RACISM TO THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON AND WAS IT WHITE SUPREMACIST OR WAS THAT TANGENTIAL TO THE END TIMES PROPHECY?

>> IN THE CASE OF THE WEAVERS, I MEAN, PART OF HOW THE STORY WAS, SORT OF, PROCESSED AND BECAME A BIT OF A MORALITY PLAY ABOUT THE EXCESSES OF BIG GOVERNMENT, THE RACIAL PART AND THE NEO-NAZIISM PART GOT SCRUBBED OUT OF IT A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THE WEAVERS WERE TRUE BELIEVING HARD CORE WHITE SUPREMACISTS, AND PRETTY MUCH PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITY WERE.

NOT ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY WHERE THEY LIVED BUT THE COMMUNITY OF ACTIVISTS WITH WHICH THEY TOOK PART.

AND I THINK THAT THE THEOLOGY AND THE WHITE POWER STUFF WERE INEXTRICABLE FOR THEM.

THEY INTERPRETED THE BIBLE -- THERE WAS A MOVEMENT CALLED "CHRISTIAN IDENTITY" WHICH TAUGHT THE WAY OF INTERPRETING THE BIBLE THROUGH THE LENS OF RACE VERY EXPLICITLY, WHERE THE JEWS WERE THE ANTICHRIST AND THEY WERE GOING TO USHER IN THE END TIMES GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD OPPRESS CHRISTIANS.

AND SIMILAR DARK VIEWS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> WHAT ABOUT ECONOMICS?

I MEAN, TO SOME EXTENT, THE WHOLE THEOLOGY INVOLVES PEOPLE, THERE'S SOME CONSPIRACY TO LEAVE YOU OUT.

WAS THERE SOME ECONOMIC POPULISM INVOLVED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE WEAVERS LEFT IOWA IN 1983, WHICH WAS, SORT OF, JUST AT THE PEAK OF WHAT BECAME KNOWN AS THE FARM CRISIS.

RANDY'S JOB WAS A DEERE COMPANY.

HE WORKED AT THE FACTORY MAKING TRACTORS AND COMBINES.

AND THAT WHOLE REGION OF THE COUNTRY WITH IOWA AT THE EPICENTER WAS BRUTALLY DEPRESSED BY -- REALLY THE 1970s BY THE FARM CRISIS.

JUST THE COMMODITIES MARKET DROPPED AND THERE WAS A SPATE OF FORECLOSURES, WHICH BROUGHT A LOT OF CONSPIRACYISM.

EVEN THE KU KLUX KLAN FLOODED INTO THE MIDWEST, WHERE IT HAD NOT FOUND MUCH PURCHASE.

RANDY KEPT HIS JOB.

WHEN THEY WENT WEST, IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF ECONOMIC PRECARITY.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH.

THEY WERE ON THE GROUND WHEN AN ECONOMIC CRISIS BROUGHT HARD RIGHT CONSPIRATORIAL IDEAS INTO THEIR COMMUNITY.

>> RANDY WEAVER SEEMS PARANOID AND CONSPIRATORIAL.

BUT WHEN HE GETS ARRESTED, I'M GOING TO QUOTE YOUR WORDS, IT REALLY DID BECOME TO RESEMBLE EVERY -- OUTLANDISH NIGHTMARES.

WAS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT CONSPIRACY AND PARANOID FEELING?

>> THE WEAVERS FOR MORE THAN TEN YEARS BEFORE THEY FELL UNDER SIEGE HAD BEEN SAYING, SOME DAY OUR HOME WILL BECOME UNDER SIEGE BY FEDERAL AGENTS, AND WE -- THEY LITERALLY FILED AN AFFIDAVIT FIVE YEARS BEFORE THIS EVEN STARTED SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO KILL A FEDERAL AGENT IN SELF-DEFENSE AND THEY'RE GOING TO COME AND KILL US ALL.

THEY PROPHESIZED WITH SHOCKING PRECISION WHAT ACTUALLY ENDED UP HAPPENING TO THEM.

SO, YOU CAN EITHER SAY IT'S BECAUSE VICKY WEAVER WAS A REAL PROPHET OR YOU CAN SAY THERE IS A WAY THESE DEEP PARANOIAS CAN FUEL THEMSELVES.

>> YOU SAID ONE OF THE MOST FATEFUL DECISIONS CAME ABOARD AN FBI JET FLYING FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

OUT THERE.

TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS.

>> SURE.

THE GOVERNMENT MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES IN JUST THEIR FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE DEALING WITH WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE WEAVERS.

BUT THE ONE THAT WAS, SORT OF, MOST UNAMBIGUOUS WAS THIS DECISION TO REVISE THEIR OWN LAWS OF ENGAGEMENT, WHICH IS BASICALLY A WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT SAYS WHEN AN FBI AGENT CAN SHOOT AT A CITIZEN.

AND ON BOARD THAT JET, BELABORING INTO THE MISBELIEF THAT THEY WERE SENDING THEIR TACTICAL TEAM INTO AN ONGOING FIRE FIGHT WITH A BAND OF ZEALOUS WHITE SUPREMACISTS INTENT ON KILLING AS MANY FEDERAL AGENTS AS POSSIBLE, WHEN IN FACT WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO CONFRONT WAS A FAMILY COWERING INSIDE THEIR CABIN WAITING FOR THEMSELVES TO BE KILLED.

THEY REVISED THEIR RULES OF ENGAGEMENT TO SAY THAT ANY ADULTS WITH A GUN ONCE A SURRENDER ANNOUNCEMENT HAS BEEN ISSUED -- BEARING IN MIND THIS IS AFTER A U.S.

MARSHAL HAS BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY KEVIN HARRIS, THE WEAVERS FRIEND, THEY SAID ANY ADULT WITH A GUN CAN AND SHOULD BE SHOT ON SITE AFTER A SURRENDER ANNOUNCEMENT.

AND THE WHOLE THING UNRAVELLED FROM THERE IN REALLY TRAGIC WAYS.

BUT SUBSEQUENTLY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DID A LONG POSTMORTEM ON EVERYTHING THAT HAD GONE WRONG, THAT WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS AND MOST OBVIOUSLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT WAS THAT REVISION OF THE RULES OF THE ENGAGEMENT.

>> ONE OF THE FACTORS YOU POINT IS TO IS THE POST-VIETNAM MILITARIZATION OF AMERICAN LIFE, IN OTHER WORDS COMING OUT OF THE VIETNAM WAR, THIS SENSE OF MILITIAS AND MILITARIZATION.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> IT WAS PRESENT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.

IT WAS PRESENT IN THE TACTICS USED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND IT WAS VERY MUCH PRESENT IN THE WEAVERS AND THE COMMUNITY, THE WIDER COMMUNITY, OF, SORT OF, WHITE POWER ACTIVISTS THAT THEY WERE ADJACENT TO.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE THEMSELVES VIETNAM VETERANS, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.

RANDY HIMSELF NEVER DEPLOYED TO VIETNAM, BUT HE WAS IN THE ARMY AND QUALIFIED TO BE A GREEN BERET, WHICH IN THE MIND OF THE GOVERNMENT MADE HIM MORE SCARE.

THERE WAS THIS NOTION OF THIS MAN WITH ALL THIS SPECIAL TRAINING WHO COULD KILL THEM.

SO, THE WEAPONS, THE TACTICS, THE WAY PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT INSURGENCY, THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT AND ITS CITIZENS WERE BOTH REGARDING EACH OTHER, OWED A LOT TO VIETNAM.

I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE LOOKING AT VIETNAM.

THERE'S HUNDREDS OF FEDERAL AGENTS IN CAMO WITH FACE PAINT.

THERE WAS -- THE EVENT TOOK ON A MILITARISTIC QUALITY ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

>> HOW DID THE CHANGE IN FEDERAL POLICIES THAT CAME AFTER RUBY RIDGE, HOW MIGHT THAT AFFECT THE INVESTIGATIONS HAPPENING INTO THE SHOOTINGS HAPPENING IN MINNEAPOLIS NOW?

>> I MEAN, THE ANALOGY BETWEEN THE KILLINGS OF RENEE GOOD AND ALEX PRETTI AND THE KILLINGS THAT HAPPENED AT RUBY RIDGE, THERE WAS SOMETHING TO THEM BECAUSE THERE WAS A MATTER OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO PROSECUTE THE SNIPER WHO SHOT AND KILLED VICKY WEAVER.

AND I THINK THE ANALOGY, KIND OF, BREAKS DOWN AFTER THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS UNSUCCESSFUL.

QUALIFIED IMMUNITY WAS USED AS THE FEDERAL DEFENSE AND THAT SNIPER NEVER SAW TRIAL.

AND IN THE CASE OF RUBY RIDGE, I THINK THE SCALE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE, IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT THOUGHTFULLY, IS MOSTLY A TESTAMENT TO THEIR EFFORT TO AVOID ANY KIND OF CONFLICT OR GUN PLAY.

WHAT WE SAW RECENTLY IN MINNEAPOLIS, TO MY MIND, LOOKS MORE LIKE, YOU KNOW, DIRECT CARELESSNESS, NOT NECESSARILY -- CERTAINLY THE AGENTS ON THE GROUND, BUT THE POLICY ITSELF SEEMS DESIGNED TO STIR UP CHAOS.

I THINK THE QUESTION OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, WHAT LEGAL LIABILITY IS THERE FOR FEDERAL AGENTS WHO SHOOT CITIZENS?

NEEDS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY, I THINK, BECAUSE AS WE SAW IN MINNEAPOLIS, THE SENSE THAT THERE IS TOTAL IMMUNITY FOR THESE CPP AND I.C.E.

OFFICERS HAS LED TO A LOT OF PUBLIC MISTRUST AND OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF TRAGEDY IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

>> YOU DESCRIBED THAT TIME PERIOD AS -- I THINK THE QUOTE IS -- AN ERA NOT UNLIKE OUR OWN.

WHY SO?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, RUBY RIDGE CAME IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE END OF THE COLD WAR AND BEFORE 9/11.

IT WAS THE, SORT OF, MOMENT IN WHICH THE AMERICAN RIGHT, ESPECIALLY, TURNED WHAT HAD BEEN A LONG-STANDING, SORT OF, WELL OF CONSPIRATORIAL ENERGY THAT HAD BEEN DIRECTED OUTWARD, LARGELY GLOBAL COMMUNISM, TURNED INWARD AND BECAME FIXATED ON THE NOTION THAT THE EVIL WAS COMING FROM WITHIN OUR OWN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

SO, THERE WAS A TIME WITHOUT AN OBVIOUS FOREIGN ANTAGONIST FOR PEOPLE TO ATTACH THEIR ANGER AND THEIR ATTENTION ON.

AND IT WAS A TIME OF, SORT OF -- IT WAS HAPPENING MORE ON THE FRINGES THAN WHAT IT IS NOW.

BUT THERE WAS A, SORT OF, POPULIST ENERGY AND WIDESPREAD CONSPIRACY.

I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE PRESENT IN OUR CURRENT MOMENT.

>> YOU REFERRED TO IT AS A HARD RIGHT PHENOMENON, FAR RIGHT PHENOMENON.

TO WHAT EXTENT WAS IT JUST A FRINGE PHENOMENON THAT HAD VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH PURE IDEOLOGY AND COULD BE CALLED FRINGE LEFT TOO?

>> I THINK THAT'S FAIR.

I THINK IN THIS CASE, THE TERM HARD RIGHT REALLY FITS.

THESE WERE PEOPLE THAT HELD BELIEFS THAT ARE COMMONLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE HARD RIGHT.

THEY WERE GENERALLY DEEPLY ANTI-SEMITIC AND RACIST.

THEY HATED THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY WERE GENERALLY CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS.

SO, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, I THINK, ARE FAIR TO CLASSIFY IN THIS CASE AS QUALITIES OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL THE HARD RIGHT.

BUT SURE.

OF COURSE THERE ARE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

IN GENERAL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK THROUGHOUT IN AMERICAN HISTORY, THEY TEND TO HAVE A RIGHT VALENCE ONLY BECAUSE I THINK CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE, SORT OF, AN ALLERGIC REACTION TO SOCIAL CHANGE.

THEY'RE A FUNDAMENTALLY REACTIONARY WAY OF ENGAGING WITH THE WORLD.

SO, YOU KNOW THE RESPONSE TO ANYTHING NEW -- SOCIAL SECURITY WAS MET WITH A TORRENT OF END TIMES RELATED CONSPIRACIES.

WHEN OBAMACARE, AS YOU MAY RECALL, WAS MET WITH -- AS SOON AS LARGE FEDERAL PROGRAMS BECOME THE OBJECT OF THESE THINGS.

SAME WITH LARGE WAVES OF IMMIGRATION.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF CONSPIRACIES ABOUT CATHOLICS WHEN CATHOLICS WERE IMMIGRATING IN GREAT WAVES.

RECENTLY WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF CONSPIRACIES ABOUT PEOPLE COMING FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHILE OF COURSE CONSPIRACIES EXIST ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, THEY HAVE HISTORICALLY HAD RIGHT WARD VALENCE.

>> YOU WRITE THAT THREE DECADES ON RUBY RIDGE SEEMS LESS LIKE A FINALE THAN THE START OF SOMETHING.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, WHEN RUBY RIDGE HAPPENED -- AND AN IMPORTANT FACT WAS IT WAS VERY SWIFTLY FOLLOWED BY THE DISASTER IN WACO, THE MOUNT CARAMEL COMPOUND, WHERE THE SAME FEDERAL AGENCIES WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF A BUNCH OF CITIZENS IN VERY SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND THOSE TWO EVENTS REALLY, COMING AS THEY DID AT THE END OF A CENTURY, THE END OF A MILLENNIUM, LOOKED LIKE FEATURES OF THE 20th CENTURY.

THERE WERE ALL -- THERE WAS THIS FUNDAMENTALIST IDEOLOGY.

THERE WAS ALL THESE TRAPPINGS OF NEO-NAZIISM.

THERE WAS ALL THIS AFTERSHOCKS OF VIETNAM.

THOSE THINGS ALL SEEMED LIKE WHAT WE WERE LEAVING BIND IN THE 20s CENTURY.

BUT NOW I THINK IF YOU READ ABOUT THE WEAVERS, YOU GET THIS UNCANNY FEELING THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE OF OUR CURRENT TIME.

AND CERTAINLY THE EXTENT TO WHICH SOME OF THE FRINGIER IDEAS HAVE BEEN MOVED INTO THE MAIN STREAM SUGGESTS THAT RUBY RIDGE WAS THE DAWN OF OUR CURRENT AGE, NOT THE CLOSE OF THE PREVIOUS ONE.

>> CHRISTOPHER JENNINGS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>>> FASCINATING STORY.

AND FINALLY, AN UPDATE ON OUR STORY FROM LAST NIGHT ABOUT A HELMET, A MESSAGE, AND A BAND.

JUST HOURS BEFORE HE WAS SET TO HURDLE DOWN THE ICE AT BREAKNECK SPEED WEARING A SPECIAL TALISMAN, UKRAINIAN SKELETON RACER, VLADISLAV -- WAS BARRED FROM COMPETITION.

HIS CRIME?

REFUSING TO REMOVE HIS HELMET BEARING THE FACES OF FELLOW ATHLETES KILLED DURING RUSSIA'S INVASION OF HIS HOME COUNTRY.

A TEARY-EYED IOC PRESIDENT SAID, THE RULES ARE THE RULES.

THEY'RE IN PLACE TO PROTECT ATHLETES.

THOUGH CRITICS QUESTIONED WHETHER SILENCING THE ISSUE OF REMEMBRANCE SERVES THAT GOAL.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID.

>> HE IS AN ATHLETE.

AND FOR ME, I WAS NOT SPEAKING TO HIM IN THAT ROOM AS A PRESIDENT.

I'M SPEAKING TO HIM AS AN ATHLETE.

WE HAVE THESE RULES IN PLACE TO TRY AND BE FAIR AND ALSO TO TRY AND ALLOW FOR US TO DO BOTH THINGS, RIGHT, TO ALLOW FOR ATHLETES TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES BUT ALSO TO ALLOW FOR ATHLETES TO BE SAFE.

AND I REALLY TRULY BELIEVE THAT BOTH HE AND HIS DAD UNDERSTAND THAT.

AND I THINK THIS IS A DIFFICULT SITUATION THAT WE ARE ALL IN.

AGAIN, I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS DISAGREEING WITH THE MESSAGING.

AND THIS MORNING, I KNOW THAT HE SHARED A POST, AND WE SPOKE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> THE SAFETY PIECE IS A LITTLE UNCLEAR TO ME.

BUT SURELY THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE RULES THAT WAS MADE TO BE BROKEN.

-- CONSIDERED TO BE WITHIN STRIKING DISTANCE OF THE PODIUM, SAID HE FELT EMPTINESS ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPETE.

IN KYIV, PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY WROTE ON X, QUOTE, WE ARE PROUD OF VLADISLAV AND WHAT HAD DID.

HAVING COURAGE IS WORTH MORE THAN ANY MEDAL.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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