THIS PROGRAM IS MADE BY MPT TO ENRICH THE DIVERSE COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT OUR STATE AND IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF OUR MEMBERS.

THANK YOU.

CONNECTING MARYLANDERS TO THEIR GOVERNMENT, THIS IS "STATE CIRCLE".

>> Jeff: WELCOME TO "STATE CIRCLE".

WE BEGIN THIS WEEK WITH YOUR AUGUST UTILITY BILL.

WILL IT BE A SUMMER SCORCHER?

THE COST OF GENERATING AND IMPORTING POWER FROM OUT OF STATE IS RISING BUT MARYLAND HAS TAKEN STEPS TO LOWER SUMMER BILLS.

WE SPOKE WITH THE LEAD UTILITY REGULATOR, FREDERICK HOOVER CHAIR OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION.

[♪♪] Mr. HOOVER THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US, VENTSLY I JUST RECEIVED MY JULY BG AND E BILL WHICH HAD THE SAME AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY USAGE AS THE YEAR BEFORE PERIOD AND IS UP 10% IN COST.

IS THAT THE BIG INCREASE OR PART OF THE BIG INCREASE THAT WE'VE BEEN WARNED ABOUT?

>> YES.

AS PART OF THEIR PROCESS, ISSUED A NEW RATE BASED ON THE CAPACITY THAT THEY CONDUCT, AND THE IMPACT OF THAT BILL IMPACT OF THAT RAISE WAS TO COME ON THE FULLY EFFECTIVE ON THE JUNE BILLS.

AND WHAT WE DECIDED TO DO WAS TO SPREAD IT OUT OVER A NUMBER OF MONTHS.

PARTICULARLY TRYING TO HAVE SOME OF IT COME IN ON WHAT ARE REFERRED TO AS SHOULDER MONTHS.

AVOIDING THE REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED LAST WINTER WHEN A SIMILAR RATE INCREASE HIT IN JANUARY PEOPLE STARTED USING A LOT OF ENERGY IN JANUARY AND FEBRUARY BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER.

AND THEN GOT THIS BIG SURPRISE IN THEIR BILLS FOR FEBRUARY AND MARCH.

TO TRY TO AVOID THAT WHAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE MONTHS OF SKWHRUL AND AUGUST TEND TO BE HIGH USAGE BECAUSE OF WEATHER NOT COLD BUT HOT.

AND OUR THOUGHT WAS IF WE CAN SPREAD THE INCREASE OUT OVER A NUMBER OF MONTHS WHICH WOULD SAVE PEOPLE MONEY BECAUSE WHEN THE USAGE IS GOING UP THE FULL IMPACT OF THAT RATE INCREASE WOULD BE SPREAD OUT OVER OTHER MONTHS.

>> THIS PJM THING, BILL MULTISTATE GRID.

THEY HAVE MORE CONTROL THAN YOU AT THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OVER THE ACTUAL BILLS THAT PEOPLE GET?

>> WELL, I MEAN THERE IS -- YEAH THEY ARE A BIG PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ELECTRICITY MARKETPLACE.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE ELECTRICITY WHETHER IT'S CALBERT CLIFFS OR NATURAL GAS PLANTS OR OLD COAL PLANTSES ALONG WITH THE RENEWABLE RESOURCES UTILITY SCALE SOLAR AND WIND PROJECTS, ALL OF THE GENERATORS BID INTO WHAT IS KNOWN AS A PASS THE AUCTION THAT PJM CONDUCTS.

WE NEED SO MUCH ELECTRICITY FOR THIS TIME PERIOD, YOU GENERATORS OFFER US WHAT YOUR BEST PRICE IS AND THEN THEY SELECT FROM THE VARIOUS ENTITIES THAT HAVE OFFERED THE SUPPLY OF ELECTRICITY FOR THE PJM DEMAND AND THAT GETS TRANSLATED INTO RATES TO CUSTOMERS.

IT IS A BIG PIECE OF THE PUZZLE AND THE MARYLAND PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION DOESN'T REGULATE PJM WE INTERACT ON A REGULAR BASIS WITH THEIR OFFICIALS AND WE HAVE AN ORGANIZATION OF PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONS WHERE WE ARE A FORMAL GROUP THAT SPEAKS TO PJM AND FINALLY, THE FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION WHICH DOES HAVE SOME REGULATORY AUTHORITY OVER PJM WE REGULARLY INTERVENE AS A LITIGANT IN PROCEEDINGS TO TRY TO PROTECT MARYLAND CONSUMERS FROM ACTIONS TAKEN BY PJM.

>> Jeff: PRIOR TO 25 YEARS AGO, THE MARYLAND PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION HAD A LOT MORE CONTROL OVER THE ELECTRICITY SYSTEM HERE BEFORE DEREGULATION.

IF YOU COULD ROLLBACK THE CLOCK, WOULD YOU RATHER THAT DECISION HADN'T HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THE PROBLEM WAS, THAT HAPPENED DURING AN ERA WHEN THERE WAS A LOT OF WHAT HAD BEEN CONSIDERED TRADITIONAL UTILITY TYPE SERVICES WERE BEING DEREGULATED.

THE PHONE SYSTEM, THE BELL SYSTEM WAS BROKEN UP BECAUSE THE THOUGHT WAS TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICE ESPECIALLY LONG DISTANCE COULD BE DONE IN A COMPETITIVE WAY.

SO THE THOUGHT WAS THAT ELECTRICITY COULD BE DONE THE SAME WAY.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN A FAIR AMOUNT OF DISCONTENT PARTICULARLY LATELY.

BECAUSE THE WAY THIS THING WAS ORIGINALLY SETUP AS I MENTIONED PJM CONDUCTS THE AUCTIONS WHERE THEY REQUEST CERTAIN AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY.

AND THE THEORY WAS THAT WHATEVER THE PRICE WAS, THAT WOULD INSENT ADVISE PEOPLE TO ADD GENERATION SOURCES IN ORDER TO MEET THE EXISTING LOAD.

IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN WE HAD A FULLY INTEGRATED UTILITY WE WOULD DECIDE WHEN A UTILITY NEEDED TO ADD A POWER PLANTED TO ITS MIX.

NOW IT'S DRIVEN BY MARKET FORCES AND I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT THE MARKET FORCES AREN'T REALLY WORKING BECAUSE THE DEMAND IS THERE AND THE PRICE INCREASES HAVE BEEN COMING THROUGH BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD THE RESPONSE FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHO BUILDS THE GENERATION PLANTS IN RESPONSE TO THAT.

SO IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT SITUATION TO TRY TO AMELIORATE THE RATE INCREASES BECAUSE THE DEMAND IS OUTSTRIPPING THE SUPPLY.

>> Jeff: ONE THING I NOTICED ON THE BILL FOR THE LONGEST TIME DESPITE THE DESIRE TO MOVE TO GREENER MORE RENEWABLE ENERGY, THE MIX OF POWER WAS ABOUT THE SAME A THIRD NUCLEAR, CALBERT CLIFFS ABOUT A THIRD COAL, A THIRD NATURAL GAS.

NOW, IT'S ACTUALLY CHANGED.

STILL A THIRD NUCLEAR.

COAL IS MAYBE DOWN BY HALF AND NATURAL GAS IS WAY UP.

AND YOU ARE STARTING TO SEE THE RENEWABLES IT WAS ALWAYS THE DAM AND NOW WE'RE UP TO 8%.

SO I MEAN WE'RE NOT WHERE YOU WANT US TO BE BUT WE'RE MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION.

>> RIGHT.

AND WE ARE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE THAT KIND OF DEVELOPMENT.

WE WANT TO SEE THE GRID BECOME GREENER QUITE FRANKLY BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT THAT GENERATING ELECTRICITY THROUGH BURNING FOSSIL-FUELS HAS ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO WE'RE TRYING TO NOT HAVE THE ENERGY GENERATION SYSTEM BE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND ONE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO ENCOURAGE DEVELOPMENT OF RENEWABLE RESOURCES WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE STATE OF MARYLAND AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION ARE VERY COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT THE OFFSHORE WIND PROJECT PROPOSED OFF THE ATLANTIC COAST OF MARYLAND GETS CONSTRUCTED BECAUSE WE VIEW THAT AS A VERY SIGNIFICANTLY SIZED ENERGY GENERATION PROJECT THAT WILL SUPPLY ELECTRICITY TO A PART OF THE STATE, THE EASTERN SHORE WHICH IS SORT OF CONSTRAINED BECAUSE ALL OF THE ELECTRICITY COMES DOWN THE PENINSULA FROM NEW JERSEY AND DELAWARE.

AND SO IT'S AFFECTED BY CONGESTION PRICING TOO MUCH ELECTRICITY IS NEEDED SO IT'S CAUSED RATES TO GO UP.

AND OUR THOUGHT WAS IF WE HAD A SOURCE OF ELECTRICITY COMING INTO THE EASTERN SHORE FROM A DIFFERENT DIRECTION IT WOULD AMELIORATE CONGESTION PRICING ISSUES.

>> Jeff: WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH BATTERY STORAGE?

THE OFFSHORE WIND IS CONSISTENT BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THE WIND DOESN'T BLOW FOR SOLAR, YOU KNOW THERE'S TIMES WHERE IT GETS DARK OR CLOUDY.

AND WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY SCALE BATTERY STORAGE YET.

>> WELL, THE BATTERY THING IS SORT OF A UNIQUE AND, I THINK, VERY EXCITING PROCESS.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ELECTRIC GRID HAS BEEN THAT YOU NEEDED TO MAKE THE ELECTRICITY SIMULTANEOUSLY WHEN YOU WERE USING IT.

YOU COULDN'T IN AN ECONOMICALLY WAY STORE IT.

NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION WITH THE LARGE-SCALE BATTERY PROJECTS WHERE YOU CAN MAKE THE ELECTRICITY IN THE MORNING AND USE THE ELECTRICITY IN THE AFTERNOON.

SO YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A SITUATION WHERE THE POWER GENERATION PLANTS ARE RUNNING AT THE SAME TIME YOU ARE USING THE ELECTRICITY.

WHICH FACILITATES THE RENEWABLES.

YOU ARE RIGHT, SOMETIMES THE RENEWABLES THEY ARE MORE AVAILABLE THAN OTHER TIMES THAN TIMES THAT ARE NEEDED.

WIND PROJECTS WHICH TEND TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE AT NIGHTTIME, PARTICULARLY THE LAND BASED ONES THEY CAN BE GENERATING ELECTRICITY AND STORED IN THE BATTERIES OVERNIGHT.

AND THEN DURING THE DAY, WHEN THE DEMAND GOES UP BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE RUNNING AIR-CONDITIONERS AND TURNING LIGHTS ON THAT POWER WILL BE THERE.

AND MY FUNDAMENTAL THOUGHT IS THAT TECHNOLOGY PARTICULARLY THE DIGITALIZATION OF THE ELECTRIC GRID IS GOING TO PUT US IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU CAN HAVE MULTIPLE SOURCES OF ENERGY GENERATION.

PEOPLE CAN BE GENERATING ELECTRICITY FROM THEIR HOUSE, THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAVE SOLAR PANELS ON THEIR ROOF GENERALLY MAKE MORE ELECTRICITY THAN THEY NEED AND IT GOES BACK INTO THE GRID.

WE COULD HAVE A VERY FLEXIBLE GRID WHERE YOU'RE CREATING ENERGY, STORING ENERGY AND USING ENERGY ALL INTERCONNECTED AND SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> Jeff: WELL, SPEAKIG OF TECHNOLOGY.

LET ME ASK ABOUT THIS CONTROVERSIAL PROPOSED POWER LINE THAT WOULD RUN ACROSS THE STATE WEST OF THE METRO AREAS.

THE THEY ARE ACTIVE IS THAT MARYLAND'S AN IMPORTER OF POWER WE DON'T MAKE ENOUGH SO WE'RE BUYING IT FROM OUT OF STATE.

THERE IS A DEMAND FROM TECHNOLOGY, DATA CENTERS, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE DATA CENTERS IN VIRGINIA THEY GET THE POWER FROM PENNSYLVANIA AND BEYOND AND VIRGINIA THERE'S GOING TO BE A BIG, UGLY AND EXPENSIVE POWER LINE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT AND WHAT THE COMMISSION'S ROLE IS?

>> WE ARE THE AGENCY CHARGED BY STATE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE THE TRANSMISSION COMPANY PERMISSION TO BUILD THEIR TRANSMISSION LINE.

IT IS A TWO-STEP PROCESS WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH.

THE APPLICANT AND PJM HAVE COME TO US AND SAID WE THINK THIS TRANSMISSION LINE IS NEEDED TO ASSURE ADEQUATE ELECTRIC RESOURCES FOR THE STATE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LIGHTS STAY ON AND WE HAVE ENOUGH ENERGY TO SUPPLY THE CURRENT DEMAND.

THERE'S A NUMBER OF PARTIES WHO ARE OPPOSING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS TRANSMISSION LINE WHAT CLAIM WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING IT IS MORE A SPECIAL INTEREST PROJECT MAINLY DESIGNED TO SUPPLY ELECTRICITY TO THE VAST AMOUNT OF DATA CENTERS IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA.

IT IS OUR JOB TO SORT THROUGH THOSE ARGUMENTS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THIS TRANSMISSION LINE IS NEEDED TO SUPPLY ELECTRICITY TO THE STATE OF MARYLAND FOR ALL CUSTOMERS.

AND THEN IF WE DECIDE THAT THAT'S TRUE, THEN WE MAKE A SECOND DECISION ABOUT WHAT THE ROUTE IS GOING TO BE.

THE APPLICANT HAS PROPOSED A ROUTE TO US.

IT WAS ONE OF 10 POSSIBLE OPTIONS.

AND SO WE'RE IN THE MIDST RIGHT NOW PROCEEDING TO DETERMINE IF THE TRANSMISSION LINE GETS BUILT AND IF IT DOES IT GETS BUILT WHERE IS IT GOING TO GO.

AND A BIG PART OF THAT PROCESS, ARE A NUMBER OF STATE AGENCIES THAT WILL BE EXAMINING BOTH THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THE LINE SHOULD BE BUILT AND THEY WILL ALSO BE EXAMINING WHERE IT'S PROPOSED TO GO AND WHAT I IMPACS IT WILL HAVE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, CULTURAL RESOURCES HISTORICAL SITUATIONS.

THE GOAL IS TO TRY AND FIND IF WE DECIDE TO BUILD IT, A ROUTE THAT IS LESS IMPACTFUL TO THE AREA AFFECTED.

>> Jeff: BEFORE WE GO, I LOOKED AT THE PSC DOCKET AND IT'S NOT JUST NOT MY BILL ON THERE YOU HAVE ALL SORTS OF MATTERS IS THERE ANYTHING THAT I HAVEN'T ASKED THAT MARYLANDERS SHOULD KNOW ABOUT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE TRYING TO DO, ENERGY AFFORDABILITY, WE'VE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMPACT THAT THESE RISING BILLS HAVE HAD ON ALL CUSTOMERS.

BUT PARTICULARLY, THOSE CUSTOMERS WHO ARE OF LESS ECONOMIC MEANS.

AND SO WE HAVE ONE PROCEEDING WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN CONSTRUCT A RATE THAT WOULD BE TARGETED FOR CERTAIN CLASSES OF CUSTOMERS AND ALLOW THEM TO MAINTAIN SERVICE WITHOUT BEING AFFECTED BY THE INCREASING RATES.

WE HAVE ANOTHER PROCEEDING WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE FUTURE OF NATURAL GAS SHOULD BE IN THE STATE OF MARYLAND.

THERE IS HE -- THIS IS NOT USING NATURAL GAS TO MAKE ELECTRICITY THIS IS NATURAL GAS THAT GOES TO PEOPLE'S HOUSES THERE'S SOME CONCERN ABOUT INVESTMENTS BEING MADE IN THAT.

WE HAVE A NUMBER OF THESE BIG, POLICY PROCEEDINGS THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY EXAMINING TO SORT OF TRANSITION THE ENERGY INDUSTRY TO BE MORE REFLECTIVE ON CLIMATE AND DEALING WITH ENERGY AFFORDABILITY.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO FREDERICK HOOVER OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION.

FOR ONE WEEK THIS SUMMER A GROUP OF YOUNG WOMEN GOT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE IN PUBLIC SAFETY AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT CAREERS.

SUE COPPIN HAS THE STORY.

>> THERE WERE DRONES TO FLY... PHIERS TO FIRES TO PUT OUT... AND CREATING REALISTIC LOOKING INJURIES AND THAT IS PART OF ONE DAY IN THE WEEKLONG CAMP SPONSORED BY THE ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY OF THE OFFICE OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT.

>> THERE IS NOT A LOT OF YOUNG WOMEN IN THE FIELD AND IN PUBLIC SAFETY.

WE WANTED TO CREATE SOMETHING TO ENCOURAGE YOUNG WOMEN TO COME INTO THE FIELD AND ALSO TEACH THEM LEADERSHIP SKILLS COMMUNICATION SKILLS IT'S SO IMPORTANT NO MATTER WHAT FIELD THEY GO INTO TO HAVE THOSE SKILLS.

>> PARTICIPANTS TURN A TURN MAKING HAM RADIO CONNECTIONS TO LEARN ABOUT HOW HAM OPERATORS PLAY IN PUBLIC SAFETY.

>> I LIKE THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE FIT IN AND THE BENEFIT WE PROVIDE TO SUPPORT COMMUNICATIONS FOR THE COUNTY.

BUT THERE'S ALSO A PLACE TO ENJOY IT AS A HOBBY AS WELL.

>> MIKE HAS BEEN A AMATEUR RADIO OPERATOR FOR 25 YEARS AND A LONGTIME VOLUNTEER WITH HAM RADIO EMERGENCY SERVICE.

>> WE ARE HERE AS NEEDED IN EMERGENCIES AND DISASTER EVENTS WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

TO HELP PROVIDE SOME ADDITIONAL COMMUNICATION OR FILL IN SOME GAPS HERE AND THERE WHERE COVERAGE MIGHT BE MISSING.

>> TAKING PART IN THE PROGRAM FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS YEAR, THE CIVIL AIR PATROL WHICH HAD PARTICIPANTS IN THE HUNT FOR A MISSING PERSON.

>> VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION BUT IT IS A GOOD ONE TO GIVE THEM A SENSE OF YOU KNOW, SENSE OF PURPOSE TO HELP PEOPLE TO SEARCH FOR THE WOUNDED TO PARTICIPATE IN DISASTER RELIEF MISSIONS WHERE PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR FOOD AND WATER.

AND MANY MORE.

>> MAJOR SAYS THE HOPE IS THAT THIS EXPERIENCE WILL BRING MORE YOUNG VOLUNTEERS INTO THE CIVIL AIR PATROL.

>> TYPICALLY OUR TEAMS ARE ON 10 PEOPLE.

IT CAN BE LESS.

AND WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS.

SO YOU KNOW, EMERGENCIES ALWAYS COME AT A BAD TIME.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS ON THE WEEKEND WHERE EVERYBODY IS AVAILABLE.

I THINK A LARGE NUMBER OF TRAINED PERSONNEL IS A PLUS.

>> FOR THE PARTICIPANTS IT WAS A MIX OF LEARNING AND FUN.

>> I THINK IT'S SO COOL.

LIKE IT WAS UNEXPECTED I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS GOING TO BE SO MUCH OF EVERY BIT OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT.

YEAH, I THINK IT'S COOL.

I LOVED THE OPPORTUNITY, HONESTLY.

>> WE SAW THE CANINES AND THE POLICE OFFICERS CAME AND TODAY WE DID FUN WORK WITH THE MAKING LIKE FAKE CUTS AND STUFF AND IT WAS REALLY COOL.

>> FOR SOFIE, A FIELD TRIP TO A 911 CENTER PROVIDED INSIGHTS.

>> I WAS LIKE WHY ARE THEY ASKING SO MANY QUESTIONS.

AND BUT I WAS ABLE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT WHY THEY ARE ASKING PAUSE THEY WANT TO HEADACHE SURE THEY KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON TO SEND THE RIGHT PEOPLE AT THE RIGHT SPOT.

>> WITH EACH CAMP I'M MARVELED AT THE QUESTIONS ASKED.

IT GIVES BE HOPE WE HAVE SUCH BRIGHT YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WANT TO DO BETTER.

AND REALLY WANT TO SERVE THE PUBLIC.

>> IN GLEN BERNIE, I'M SUE COPPIN FOR "STATE CIRCLE".

>> Jeff: NOW IF YOU'VE ENJOYED STEAMED CRABS YOU KNOW IT WAS NO BARGAIN.

PRICES ARE UP BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF CRABS IN THE BAY IS DOWN.

WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF THE CRAB FISHERY?

RERECENTLY CAUGHT UP WITH MANDY BROMILOW BLUE CRAB PROGRAM MANAGER AT THE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES.

MANDY THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

LET'S START WITH YOUR RESEARCH OF A FEW YEARS AGO BEFORE YOU WERE IN MARYLAND YOU WERE LOOKING AT JUVENILE CRABS AND THEIR PREDATORS WHEN THEY ARE DOWN IN THE BAY GRASSES.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> YEAH.

THIS IS ACTUALLY MY MASTERS THESIS WORK I WAS DOING IN 2014, 2017.

AND BASICALLY I WAS LOOKING AT WHAT WAS EATING JUVENILE BLUE CRABS AND HOW DOES SEA GRASS ASSATEAGUE ISLAND A REFUGE FOR JUVENILES IN PARTICULAR.

I WAS TETHERING THE JUVENILES WHICH MEANS, I WAS GLUEING THEM TO FISHING LINE AND STAKING THEM OUT IN GRASS BEDS IN VARIOUS DENSITY AND LOOKING AT RATES HOW MANY ARE ARE SURVIVING.

BUT I WAS USING A GO PRO.

AND FILMING MY CRAB THAT WAS OUT IN THE SEA GRASS BED TO SEE WHAT WAS EATING THEM WHICH WE SAW A LOT OF COOL THINGS.

WE SAW BIRD FISH EATING THE JUVENILE CRABS AND NORTHERN PUFFERS WE WERE SEEING ADULT BLUE CRABS CANNIBALIZING ON THE JUVENILES IN THE GRASS BEDS.

THAT WAS THE BIGGEST PREDATOR.

YOU CAN GET HIGHER RATES SURVIVAL BECAUSE THEY ARE ABLE TO USE THE SPACES AS A REFUGE FROM PREDATORS.

>> Jeff: IF YOU ARE A JUVENILE CRAB THE WORLD IS AGAINST YOU INCLUDING YOUR FELLOW CRABS IS TRYING TO EAT YOU.

>> YEP.

>> Jeff: DOES BEING A CRUSTATION HELP?

LIKE THE SHELL WHEN THEY ARE NOT MOULTING?

>> WE HAVE A SIZE REFUGE ONCE THEY GET TO A LARGER SIZE PREDATORS HAVE A GAPE LIMITATION THEY CAN'T OPEN THEIR MOUTH AS WIDE AND THE SHELL GIVES YOU PROTECTION.

LIKE A BLUE CATFISH WHICH CAN GET MASSIVE AND HAS A CRAZY BITE YOU'RE NOT REALLY PROTECTED BY ANYTHING.

BUT USUALLY ONCE CRABS EACH A CERTAIN SIZE THEY OUTGROW FOR MOST SPECIES.

>> Jeff: AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHANGED IN THE BAY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS IS THE ARRIVAL OF THE BLUE CATFISH.

NONNATIVE SPECIES HERE.

AND THEY EAT A LOT AND THEY EAT A LOT OF CRABS.

>> YEAH.

SO WE DID SEE THIS SPREAD OF INVASIVE BLUE CATFISH THE SUMMER OF 2018, 2019 WE HAD A REALLY WET SUMMER WHICH MEANS SALINITY WAS PUSHED DOWN AND WE SAW BLUE CATFISH MOVING INTO AREAS WHERE THEY WERE NOT PREVIOUSLY BECAUSE THEY ARE LIMITED BY THE SA -- SALINITY.

WHEN THEY EXPANDED WE HAD CONCERNS OF THEM EATING MORE BLUE CRABS.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES THAT HAVE SHOWN THAT BLUE CATFISH EAT A TON OF JUVENILE BLUE CRABS.

THERE WAS A STUDY IN THE JAMES RIVER WITH HUGE DENSITIES OF BLUE CATFISH.

AND THEY WERE EATING THEY ESTIMATED MILLIONS OF BLUE CRABS EATEN IN THIS PORTION OF THE JAMES RIVER.

THE PROBLEM IS WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD POPULATION ESTIMATE FOR BLUE CATFISH THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BAY.

BECAUSE THE WAY THAT THEIR INVASION HAS HAPPENED THEY STARTED OUT IN THREE MAIN TRIBUTARIES AND NOW THEY'VE SPREAD.

>> Jeff: MUST HAVE BEEN NORTHERN BAY IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE SALINITY.

>> THE NORTHERN PAY AND UPPER TRIBUTARIES OF VIRGINIA.

THEY'VE SPREAD AND YEAH WE DON'T KNOW LIKE HOW MANY BLUE CATFISH ARE IN THE NEWER SPACES THAT THEY'VE INHABITED BASICALLY.

WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD ESTIMATE OF POPULATION AND THE POPULATION LEVEL EFFECTS.

>> Jeff: APPARENTLY IF YOU ARE FISHING APPARENTLY THEY ARE JUMPING IN THE BOAT.

>> YES, I'VE BEEN ON SURVEYS CATCHING TONSFUL JUVENILES AND IT'S INCREDIBLE HOW MANY ARE OUT THERE.

>> Jeff: TELL US ABOUT THE DREAD SURVEY FOR CRABS THE NUMBERS WERE NOT GOOD.

HOW IS IT DONE AND WHY IS IT A WINTER THING?

>> BECAUSE IN THE WINTER IS WHEN THE CRABS ARE GROWING IN THE SEDIMENT THEY ARE I AM MOBILE AND IT MAKES IT EASIER THAT IS THE HARDEST THING ABOUT SAMPLING FISH POPULATIONS THEY CAN MOVE.

YOU HAVE ISSUES ARE WE RESAMPLING THE SAME FISH.

YOU KNOW THEY ARE THERE AND YOU ARE TOSSING THEM BACK ONCE YOU DOWN THEM WE'RE GOING OUT VIRGINIA DOES A PORTION AND MARYLAND DOES A PORTION.

AND WE COME TOGETHER AND COMBINE OUR RESULTS FOR A BAY WIDE ABUNDANCE.

BUT WE'RE GOING OUT WITH DREDGE LIKE A GIANT HEAVY RAKE THAT WE THROW OVERBOARD AND DRAGGING IT ALONG FOR A CERTAIN NUMBER OF MINUTES THE A CERTAIN SPEED.

AND THEN WE PULL UP ALL THE CRABS WE COLLECT AND MEASURE THEM, COUNT THEM, SEX THEM AND DETERMINE IF THEY ARE MATURE OR IMMATURE AND IT GIVES US ALL THE DATA ABOUT ASPECTS OF THE POPULATION.

HOW MANY MALES, HOW MANY FEMALES WHAT SIZES?

AND WE SAMPLE BAY WIDE 1500 SITES THAT ARE RANDOMLY SELECTED THROUGHOUT THE BAY.

WE'RE GETTING A REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF WHAT THE POPULATION LOOKS LIKE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE