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Live from Maryland Public Television, this is "Direct Connection" with Jeff Salkin.

>> Jeff: Good evening.

Welcome to your Direct Connection.

Coming up tonight, what Maryland schools can learn from a successful reading program in Mississippi.

That is ahead.

>>> First tonight, older workers facing age discrimination.

For the AARP consumer alert, we are joined by Karen Morgan member of the AARP Maryland Executive Council, and Heather Tinsley-Fix, AARP senior adviser for employer engagement.

Thank you for joining us.

I saw that we're 11,000 complaints to the EEOC on age discrimination.

Heather, tell us a little bit about the big picture there.

What forums can that discrimination take?

>> Yes, it's unfortunate it is a stubborn form of discrimination that continues to stay with us.

We know from surveys 64% of workers over the age of 40 have seen or experienced age discrimination at work.

And that can be anything as subtle as you know, saying things like are you having a senior moment?

Or calling someone like grandpa buzz or it can be something like the okay boomer meme that went around prepandemic.

But it can be things like not being invited to strategy meetings, being progressively sidelined.

Sometimes a big red flag is that your employee reviews which are stellar up to a time start to get steadily worse.

And the more overt types of statements that people can make such as oh, when are you thinking about retiring?

And making the work environment feel hostile towards people who are older and expecting them to leave.

And Karen, I know that we were chatting before this interview and you have experienced some of these things?

>> I definitely have.

I was in my workplace for well over 30 years.

And at one point a list came out with the number of years of service.

And I was at the top of the list as one of the longest serving people in my department.

And so I did get questions sort of half joking but asking me when are you thinking about retiring?

When might you be doing that?

Gee, you've been here a while I can't believe you've been here this long.

Yeah.

You know, I'll let you know when I think about it.

>> Jeff: Karen, I'm thinking about this form of workplace discrimination compared to other forms of workplace discrimination.

Do older workers have the same legal protections that other protected groups and classes might?

>> No, they have some of those protections.

Definitely.

Age discrimination is against the law.

Employers are forbidden from discriminating on the bases of age but in terms what you do to enforce that they are more limited if someone was alleging race, or sex or religious discrimination.

They are still against the law.

Don't do it.

>> Jeff: Heather, what else would you like to see in federal law or local laws?

>> Well, I am not a lawyer so I don't want to provide a legal opinion.

But what I can tell you is that the age discrimination in employment act the federal law against age discrimination prohibits employers from using ages a condition for any type of employment decision.

So things like hiring.

And promotion.

And layoffs.

So they are forbidden from using age as a condition of those types of decisions.

However, as Karen mentioned, enforcing that is a little tougher than some of the other protected classes.

And the good news is that some states have stronger laws protecting older workers and I should note that workers 40 and over are fall under this protection.

>> Jeff: 40?

>> Some states have stronger law.

The federal law is the floor of that type of protection.

Surprisingly and it's not technically against the law for employers to ask your age if an employment context.

They are not supposed to use it as a basis for making a decision.

You can see how murky it can get.

>> Jeff: We should point out that you are a lawyer a retired lawyer.

Do you think there is a specific age or maybe it depends what you do for a living where you go from being looked up to as a veteran, experienced employee and all of a sudden like you say, it's are you thinking about retiring, are you?

>> Yes, I think it does depend on the workplace you are in.

For example, in AARP surveys we found people in the technology field any sort especially software development and engineering if you are not some young person then you are just assumed that you are not tech savvy that you cannot keep up and not learning all those are stereotypes and they are not proven in real-life.

But that is what people assume.

I think in my workplace, I was doing Public policy analysis I think it's less prevalent but it can still exist.

There is this idea of when you are older, you are not going to be around that long.

Or you are not keeping up or whatever.

And I know as an older worker I went from being the youngest person to being one of the older people.

And I was more sensitive to the need to keep up and also I felt connected to that job.

And here is the other thing as people get older.

I think if you develop this wisdom that we're so wanted with having you realize what you don't know.

How much more there is to learn.

And I think maybe if you are going to stereotype younger people are less likely to be aware of that.

You want somebody who is interested in learning whose mind is open like a parachute.

>> I would add to that that younger folks are trying to figure out their place in the workforce trying to figure out what job and profession they really click with.

Karen is right, by the time you get to be an older worker you are much more established and have more energy and zeal to add to that profession.

We are not saying younger workers are flighty but it can take time to figure that out.

And as a result younger people switch jobs more often than older folks.

>> Jeff: So you are likely getting somebody who will stick around.

What if it is a career, a job where it's physically demanding.

You are a fire fighter.

Can they ease you out because you are 65 or can they do it because of performance on a physical test how far you are able to run or carry or whatever?

>> Yeah, so, again I couldn't speak specifically to the firefighting context but it's reasonable for employers to have posted transparent requirements for a job if that involves a physical element that needs to be tested I think that makes perfect sense.

What is dangerous is that too many people make assumptions before you are hired or they don't do the types of testing that would validate their assumptions and that can be super damaging to older workers.

For example, if you have an older worker who wants to pivot into a new type of job they might be willing to start at a more junior level.

That dreaded overqualified word might technically apply but they are trying to learn and willing to be more junior as a result.

Just to drop the assumptions at the door the biggest advice I give to employers.

>> I was going to say the other thing, too, Jeff, at the end of the day with regard to occupations like firefighter, police, law enforcement, the bona fides are the requirements and because a person is younger they can do it, or a person older they can't doesn't make sense, you need to see what that person can do.

An older person can surprise you and maybe some of the younger can't pass the test because they don't know how to do those things.

So you have to see what that person can do.

>> Jeff: The unemployment data would indicate it is a good time to get hired.

The unemployment rate is in Maryland it's close to its all time low that we know of.

Let's do a little advice.

For somebody who is looking for a job and to makeup a number let's say they are in their 60s and we've established the employer can ask when were you born or graduate high school how do you spin it or would it be reasonable to fib a little bit but maybe leave out the college graduation date what is the best approach?

>> Well, I do have a pillow in my guest bedroom that says age is a number and mine is unlisted but that could be me.

>> Bring that with you to the interview.

>> Yes.

>> We do counsel older applicants to use their networks, lean on their networks and if you don't want to provide your age and that question is listed in the application process, that's almost now exclusively digital sometimes you can put in 9999 if you want to say look I don't need to give you my age.

But nevertheless I think it's important to keep up with the latest trends in your profession and important to join professional associations and it's important to stay up to speed and up skill every few years.

It doesn't not necessarily mean hard technology skills.

But it does mean and I saw this actually in an institute for the future report, make friends with the machines.

There is a digital element to every job that almost every job.

So that's the kind of facility that you will need.

Spread sheets and collaboration software.

I don't think you have to be intimidated by knowing how to be a software coder or developer but you need to know how to interact with technology and many older adults are comfortable interacting with technology.

>> Jeff: And the way that large companies at least look for applicants these days is another area where they could potentially discriminate a little bit in terms of guiding the applicants they want to get.

If you put your help wanted ads on Tiktok you are not going to get that many older folks.

>> That's true.

And we did a report last year and found that older workers are less represented on linked in.

Something that AARP does/work is to counsel applicants to have a linked in profile.

So it's true.

We do tell employers who come and say listen we are looking for older candidates as part of our diversity sourcing, great.

>> To diversify your sourcing strategies and that might mean work with aging organizations in your area or going old school and posting on bulletin board Massachusetts Flayses westbound older folks gather.

So it's both ends of the coin.

But it is true that the digitalization of the job market has created Pope for age discrimination in both employment and the job seekers.

>> Jeff: Karen, I was -- Let me jump in for a second.

I'm sure you would have had the same experience that almost everybody has had if you work in a diverse workplace is knowing that a diverse workplace has benefits and performs better.

Talk to us about how age and seniority should be a part of that diversity?

>> Well, I will jump in here, Jeff, and say it is a value add.

And so we need to change the cultural paradigm around aging as if it's a path to loss.

It is not.

It is very much dependent on the individual skills that people bring.

And their individual motivations.

And their level of commitment and that can alter at any age.

So we need to -- And older workers I know for me, I felt a personal commitment duty to want to help people who were newer to the workplace.

To understand the job duties, to understand why we do the things we do, the institutional memory to help them get acclimated to the institutional memory of where I was working.

That was hugely important to me.

>> Jeff: Let me ask Heather because I have half a minute left what resources does AARP offer?

>> So, we offer a lot of resources for job seekers and AARP/work.

We have a resume adviser tool a job board we have lots of articles on all sorts of topics from career change to handling age discrimination at work.

Check it out.

And the employers in Maryland we have an employer pledge.

Check at that time out at AARB.org/employer pledge.

Heather tinsley-fix and Karen Morgan both with AARP.

We appreciate your time.

Thank you very much.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> Jeff: Now the state of Maryland is hoping to improve test scores with additional resources and a change in teaching strategy.

We spoke with the state's interim school superintendent Dr. Carey wright.

You've been in this interim position for five months now.

What is the timetable for the board to make a permanent decision?

>> So the board is undergoing a national search.

And they are scheduling their first round of interviews in March.

And then any of those people that are selected for final interviews will be conducted in April and they are hoping to make the permanent appointment at their April 30th board meeting.

>> Jeff: What is happening in the state you are not treading water you are hard at work there.

Tell us about the main initiatives you are working on when it comes to literacy and math?

>> Sure, so the board passed a resolution in January around the science of reading and requiring all districts to implement the science of reading.

I was fortunate enough to be able to hire the woman from Mississippi who led my work in Mississippi.

She moved here and is going to be leading our literacy work here in Maryland.

We are putting together a strong literacy policy and working on that as we speak.

We're also hiring we finished hiring literacy instructional review teams to go out and look at districts across the state and the K-3 area to see what it looks like and give feedback to schools and teachers and to us on what they are finding around the science of reading in the schools they are visiting.

And in math we are really looking at all of our math standards again and our math pathways.

The blueprint requires children to be college and career ready by the end of grade 10 we can't wait for high schools.

We are looking at our math pathways gabbing to kindergarten and what would it look like by the time they arrive in grade 10.

>> Jeff: You have a lot of history working in Maryland and most recently you were the long time superintendent in Mississippi where the reading scores shot up and now exceed Maryland's reading proficiency scores and we are one of the richest states and Mississippi is not.

You death a lot of credit but you mentioned the science of reading called phonics, what did you do in Mississippi?

>> Well, there's more to the science of reading than phonics.

So there's awareness, fluency, comprehension, language development and all through that you are going to be building children's knowledge.

And what we did we ensure that every teacher Pre-K through grade three and extended that up through our middle schools, receive training in the science of reading.

What does that look like in a classroom, what do teachers need to do.

Because we wanted to make sure we were building our teachers' capacity along the way to make sure they knew how to teach reading in a scientifically proven way to do it and there's lots of years of research behind the science of reading.

People lump it with phonics but it has five components to it and all come together to ensure our children know how to read.

It took quite a team down there.

I had an amazing team in Mississippi.

Great team here in Maryland and people committed to making sure that this is done with the sense of efficacy.

So we're doing the same thing.

We are also looking to train our coaches.

Throughout the state of Maryland.

We are now we've got 175 literacy coaches we are in the process of planning that development because those are the building in in your buildings we need to make sure that they know the science of reading to be helping teachers get better.

Lots of exciting things going on in Maryland, too.

>> >> Jeff: Does it represent a move away from what may have been called whole language and the second part of the question is the education world is sometimes criticized for lurching from one fad to the next.

Is there anyway that 10 years from now we look back and say this science of reading approach was garbage and we're going to try something else?

>> I don't think so because the science of reading had years and years of evidence before I picked it up in Mississippi and that is one of the reasons we leaned into that.

You are looking at that 12 years later and in Mississippi is still going strong.

No.

That is the one thing I can say and I said this to the board, the initiatives I'm putting in place I feel are strong and research based and that is a critical part of it.

You mentioned whole language but that term balanced literacy.

So neither of those two approaches have any kind of research support behind them.

And that's the reason we're sticking behind those initiatives that we know are research-based.

>> Jeff: Is Maryland late in making this change when you compare what we teach to other states nationally?

>> Well, I think each local district has been allowed to choose.

I think which method they would like to employ.

If we look at the data Maryland scores have continued to fall.

This is a good opportunity for us to look and say are we doing the right thing by children.

I think that is the reason the board decided to pass the resolution they passed in January to say no we're going to lean in and lean in hard on a strategy that we know has research to support it.

>> Jeff: In 2015, Maryland ranked 24th in the nation on something called the NAEP Fourth Grade assessment.

We've fallen from 24th to 40th.

I don't know if that is reading or math or something else, but have the trends here been going in the wrong direction?

And what would you attribute that to?

>> So what you are referring to is the national assessment of educational progress administered nationally every two years in both English language arts and math in grades 4 and 8 and sometimes in 12.

You are looking the the data from the English language arts is what you are referencing.

And that is the one test that is administered nationally so states can compare themselves against each other.

The only test that has that stamp Pelling.

And I think the beauty of NAEP it does draw your eye to where you are ranking nationally.

And Mississippi for years was ranked 50th in the nation.

And now ranks 35th in the nation and 21 for reading according to NAEP.

Maryland scores have been dropping so we're trying to turn that trend around and it can be turned around if we can do it in Mississippi we can do it in Maryland and we're blessed to have the funding from the blueprint in order to get a lot of this implemented.

And the will of the state board to do that and the will of the Governor and his team to do that.

So it takes a village and it does.

It's not just one person.

It takes a lot of people rowing in the same direction and that is what we're trying to do get our districts and leaders rowing in the same direction.

>> Jeff: I did see positive testing news out of Baltimore city on kindergarten readiness.

And this was specifically for kids who had had the benefit of a preschool program or Pre-K that they I mean it sort of inuse active they would do better when they got to kindergarten, but it is a little bit of proof of concept on that, would you agree?

>> Absolutely.

I cannot tell you enough about early childhood education and the power high quality early childhood education.

Happy to see that coming out of Baltimore as well.

The little ones if you put them in high quality early childhood programming there is a data that supports their success not only reading on grade level, graduating from high school on time, getting a job, being less involved in drugs, less involved with the police there's all kinds of data that followed the little ones through.

The more you know the blueprint is about expanding Pre-K which is wonderful to give more kids an opportunity to come into learning and learning at a wonderful age.

So we're excited about what is happening in Maryland.

We're excited about the fact we are expanding Pre-K significantly.

And so more children will have the advantage of coming to kindergarten and kindergarten ready.

>> Jeff: Kids everywhere suffered academically during the pandemic.

How is Maryland compared to other states in recovering from that?

I wonder if we were a little bit preoccupied by the kerwin blueprint thing and maybe didn't focus enough on the immediate help in tutoring, extended hours and that sort of thing?

>> Maryland is doing a good job we're starting to see the recovery in our test scores from the past spring.

And there is a massive amount of tutoring that is taking place and has been taking place in Maryland.

And districts could take advantage of not only with dollars that came from the blueprint but dollars that came from the funding from the feds.

So I think that the choices that they've made are the right choices.

What we're looking to do now is bring consistency across all the districts and focus on those children that are still needing the help the most.

>> Jeff: Is there anything else that strikes you having worked in a couple of Maryland school systems and been away in Mississippi for a longtime and now come back.

You know Maryland.

And you also have the perspective of quasi outsider.

Did you see when you got back here?

>> I saw a tremendous amount of support for education.

I mean there's nothing like this in the nation that is taking place that the blueprint and the blueprint funding has done.

Nothing like it.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that this state has to really make a significant difference in the lives of children.

And in the lives of teachers honestly with salary raises and career ladders and children interested in CTE and worked base learning and apprenticeships.

Maryland is really been thoughtful about this.

I think this is a very exciting time to be here.

I'm proud to be in the position that I am.

And proud of the state because I think it's always put education first and now it's done so in a significant way.

>> Jeff: Carey wright is the interim state school superintendent.

Dr. Wright we appreciate your time.

Thank you.

>> My pleasure, thanks so much.

>> Jeff: And that is "Direct Connection" for this week.

We're back Friday with "State Circle" and the latest on Maryland politics.

Join us Friday evening at 7:00 p.m. You can find past editions of our programs on video.MPT.TV and on social media@MPT news.

For all of us at MPT thank you for watching "Direct Connection" and have a good night.