"DIRECT CONNECTION" IS MADE BY MPT TO SERVE ALL OF OUR DIVERSE COMMUNITIES AND IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF OUR MEMBERS.

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LIVE FROM MARYLAND PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" WITH JEFF SALKIN.

♪♪] >> JEFF: GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO YOUR "DIRECT CONNECTION."

GOOD EVENING WELCOME TO YOUR "DIRECT CONNECTION".

COMING UP TONIGHT THE PARDON POWER.

ARE THERE ANY LIMITS TO EXECUTIVE CLEMENCY?

WE WILL ASK THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK.

FIRST A COVID COMEBACK CASES HAVE BEEN CLIMBING OVER THE SUMMER.

WILL IT CONTINUE?

JOINING US TONIGHT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR HEALTH IS Dr. GREG SCHRANK INFECTIOUS DISEASES PHYSICIAN AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND MEDICAL CENTER AND ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND SCHOOL OF MEDICINE.

WELCOME BACK TO MPT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME AGAIN.

>> Jeff: ONE DAY WE WILL TALK WITH YOU ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

TELL US WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SEEING AT YOUR HOSPITALS?

>> AS YOU MENTIONED WE CERTAINLY SAW AN INCREASE IN COVID TRANSMISSION IN A LOT OF THE COMMUNITY ACTIVITY EARLIER THIS SUMMER.

BEGINNING MID-TO LATE JULY AND PEAKING IN AUGUST.

AND THE WAY THAT WE DETECTED THAT WAS THROUGH WASTEWATER SURVEILLANCE.

THE C.D.C.

AND OTHER LABS CAN TEST WASTEWATER AND IT IS OUR FIRST SIGNAL OF AN INCREASE IN COVID.

AND THIS IS SIMILAR IN PREVIOUS YEARS.

GOING BACK TO 2020 THERE HAS BEEN A LATE SUMMER INCREASE IN COVID-19 ACTIVITY THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS DESPITE HIGH LEVELS OF TRANSMISSION IT DIDN'T TRANSLATE INTO ANY NOTABLE INCREASE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS OR DEATHS.

>> Jeff: WHY DOES IT HAPPEN IN LATE SUMMER?

I UNDERSTAND WHY IT HAPPENS IN THE WINTER AROUND THE HOLIDAYS EVERYBODY IS TOGETHER THEY ARE INDOORS.

SOMEBODY COUGHS AND EVERYBODY GETS IT.

BUT LATE SUMMER?

WHAT IS THE THEORY?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

AND I THINK SOMETHING WE'RE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.

WE DO HAVE A NEW YEAR'S NOW OF EXPERIENCE TO TRY TO GET A HANDLE ON IT.

I THINK THERE IS A FEW DIFFERENT REASONS WHY, POTENTIALLY.

ONE IS THAT ALL OF THOSE INFECTIONS THAT OCCUR OVER THE WINTER AND THE VACCINATIONS THAT OCCUR IN THE FALL AND WINTER SOME IMMUNITY IS WANING BY THE TIME WE GET TO THE LATE SPRING AND EARLY SUMMER.

WHAT WE CAN ALSO SEE IS NEW VARIANTS EMERGE.

SOMETIMES THE MUTATIONS THAT ALLOW THE VIRUS TO BETTER ESCAPE OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM AND THAT IMMUNITY WE HAD BUILT UP AND THE THIRD THING WE KNOW FROM THE SUMMER AND THE PAST FEW SUMMERS IT'S BEEN HOT.

BY THE TIME WE GET TO JULY AND AUGUST ALL THAT NICE TIME OUTDOORS IN THE SPRING, IT'S NOT AS REFRESHING SO WE GO BACK INSIDE TO AIR-CONDITIONING AND THE COMBINATION OF SOME OF THE FACTORS AND SOME THINGS WE MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND LIKELY CONTRIBUTE TO AN INCREASE.

>> Jeff: GOOD THEORY.

SO WITH THIS NEWEST WAVE, WHAT ARE THE HALLMARKS THE SYMPTOMS?

HOW CONTAGIOUS?

HOW SERIOUS IS IT?

>> VERY SIMILAR SET OF SYMPTOMS.

ALL OF THE TRADITIONAL RESPIRATORY SYSTEMS WE ASSOCIATE WITH INFECTIONS FEVER, COUGH, AFATIGUE THAT LOSS OF SAFETY AND SMELL THAT WAS CLASSIC WITH COVID THAT HAS CONTINUED.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THERE HAS NOT BEEN INCREASE IN DISEASE SEVERITY THIS TIME AROUND.

AND I THINK THAT THE ONE THING THAT MAY BE DIFFERENT IS INCREASE IN WHAT WE CALL TRANS MISSABILITY HOW CONTAGIOUS THE VIRUS IS.

WITH SOMETHING THAT GAVE THIS AN ADVANTAGE THIS SUMMER.

>> Jeff: IF YOU HAVE A COVID QUESTION A VACCINATION QUESTION CALL US WE WILL HAVE THE NUMBER ON THE SCREEN OR SEND AN E-MAIL TO LIVE QUESTIONS@MPT.ORG.

I'VE HAD COVID THE LAST TIME WAS A YEAR AGO.

I'VE HAD FOUR VACCINES.

I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THIS THING IN DIFFERENT WAYS MULTIPLE TIMES.

DO I REALLY NEED TO GET ANOTHER SHOT?

>> WELL, LET ME SAY YOU ARE IN GOOD COMPANY IN 98% OF AMERICANS IT'S ESTIMATED HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, INFECTED OR BOTH.

WE HAVE BROAD IMMUNITY ACROSS THE COUNTRY ONE OF THE REASONS WHY DISEASE IMPACT IS MUCH, MUCH LOWER IN 2024 THAN IN 2020.

BUT THAT BEING SAID, I THINK THERE'S STILL SOME RISK.

WE CERTAINLY SAW HOSPITALIZATIONS AND SEVERE DISEASE FROM COVID THIS YEAR AND THAT IS PARTICULARLY AMONGST PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE.

NOT JUST COVID BUT OTHER RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS ELDERLY, VERY, VERY YOUNG CHILDREN OR IMMUNOCOMPROMISED INDIVIDUALS IN PARTICULAR.

SO WHILE THE COVID VACCINE DOESN'T ALWAYS STOP INFECTION IT CAN REDUCE SEVERITY AND THE UPDATED BOOSTERS ARE VERY, VERY CLOSELY MATCHED TO THE STRAINS THAT ARE CIRCULATING CURRENTLY.

SO IT'S DEFINITELY WILL ADD PROTECTION AND BOOST IMMUNITY BEYOND WHAT YOU HAVE.

>> Jeff: THE SHOTS HAVE NEVER BEEN PERFECTLY MATCHED BECAUSE IT IS A MOVING TARGET?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT IS A MOVING TARGET.

CERTAINLY THE F.D.A.

AND OUR REGULATORY AGENCIES IN THE U.S. HAVE VERY STRICT REQUIREMENTS FOR REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF UPDATED BOOSTERS.

AND EARLY ON IN THE YEAR, BASED ON WHAT IS CIRCULATING, PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES DECIDE WHAT TO TARGET BASED ON RECOMMENDATIONS, CONSULTATION WITH EXPERTS AND THEN MANUFACTURING AND TESTING MOVES INTO ITS NEXT STAGES UP UNTIL THE POINT WHERE IT'S REVIEWED AND APPROVED.

>> Jeff: STARTING TO USE THE WORD ENDEMIC INSTEAD OF PANDEMIC WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION AS WELL.

YOU WERE TO ASK ME TOMORROW, YOU MIGHT GET A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ANSWER.

IT IS A CHALLENGING CONCEPT.

I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL DISEASE.

AND HOW SEVERE IT IS.

SOMETHING LIKE MALARIA OR TUBERCULOSIS THOSE DISEASES ARE ENDEMIC TO OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

AND WE CERTAINLY THINK OF THOSE AS SEVERE INFECTIONS.

SO WHAT ENDEMIC MEANS, I THINK, FOR US, IT'S MORE PREDICTABLE.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT COVID LIKELY CIRCULATES ALMOST YEAR-ROUND.

AND THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR LIKE AS WE MENTIONED LATE SUMMER AND INTO THE FALL AND WINTER WE CAN EXPECT INCREASES IN TRANSMISSION AND HOPEFULLY NOT BUT WE MAY SEE LARGE INCREASES PARTICULARLY IF THERE'S MUTATIONS.

IT'S AROUND HOW PREDICTABLE AND THE FACT IT'S CIRCULATING WITH RELIABILITY.

>> Jeff: THIS IS MARY IS 76, I HAD COVID IN AUGUST.

HOW LONG SHOULD I WAIT TO GET A VACCINE?

IS THERE SOMETHING THERE IF YOU HAD COVID LAST WEEK THERE'S NO NEED TO GET THE VACCINE TODAY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT DOES VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSON.

BUT FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, VACCINE WILL OFFER -- INFECTION WILL OFFER SOME PROTECTION FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, 2-4 MONTHS DEPENDING ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

GETTING VACCINATED LIKELY WON'T HELP WITH THAT ADDITIONAL IMMUNITY.

BUT WAITING A LITTLE BIT CAN ACTUALLY HELP MAKE THE IMMUNE RESPONSE MORE ROBUST.

IT'S BENEFICIAL TO WAIT A FEW MONTHS.

AND IT GIVES YOURSELF TIME TO REST AFTER HAVING AN INFECTION AND GOING RIGHT INTO A VACCINE IS NO FUN.

>> Jeff: EVERY YEAR WE'VE HAD A SPIKE AROUND THE HOLIDAYS.

THANKSGIVING, PEOPLE GET TOGETHER A WEEK LATER WE HAVE MORE CASES SAME WITH CHRISTMAS.

REASONABLE TO EXPECT THAT AGAIN AND IF THE VIEWERS THINK WHEN TO GET THE SHOT, MAYBE YOU DON'T WANT TO WAIT THAT LONG.

MAYBE A MONTH BEFORE?

>> GIVE YOURSELF A FEW WEEKS AHEAD OF THE HOLIDAYS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE INFECTED WHETHER THEY KNOW IT OR NOT.

BASED ON TESTING.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE INFECTED THIS SUMMER.

SO SOMETIME IN OCTOBER, NOVEMBER.

CERTAINLY EARLY NOVEMBER WOULD BE A REASONABLE TIME TO GET VACCINATED AND IF YOU KNEW YOU WERE INFECTED THIS SUMMER GIVE YOURSELF THAT OPPORTUNITY TO FACILITATE A GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE AS WELL.

>> Jeff: VIEWER WRITES TO ASK ABOUT LONG-TERM HEALTH EFFECTS FOR A 15-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO WAS CONTRACTED COVID MULTIPLE TIMES.

THAT'S ALL THE INFORMATION I HAVE.

BUT IT DOES OPEN THE DOOR TO SOME OF THE UNCOMMON THINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN.

HEART INFLAMMATION AND SO FORTH.

>> YEAH.

THANKFULLY MANY OF THOSE COMPLICATIONS PARTICULARLY AMONGST CHILDREN THAT WERE SEEN EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC THE LIKELIHOOD OF THOSE OCCURS HAS DECREASED OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

AND THAT'S THANKS TO IMMUNITY.

THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT, WASN'T STUDIED AS MUCH IN TEENAGERS BUT THERE WAS RECENTLY A VERY STRONG ANALYSIS OF VETERANS ACTUALLY ACROSS V.A.

HOSPITALS LOOKING AT COMPARING VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS TO THOSE NOT VACCINATED AND THE RISK OF LONG-TERM COMPLICATIONS OF COVID AND THE RISK WAS SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER AMONGST VACCINATED VETS.

ANOTHER GOOD REASON TO GO OUT AND GET THE VACCINE IS NOT ONLY CAN IT REDUCE DISEASE SEVERITY AND LIKELY REDUCES THE RISK OF LONGER TERM COMPLICATIONS.

>> Jeff: THIS IS BILL IN PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY.

GO AHEAD.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: YES, SIR, WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION?

I THINK WE LOST BILL.

A LOT OF OTHER SHOTS OFFERED AT THE MOMENT.

SO YOU CAN GET A COVID SHOT A FLU SHOT AN RSV SHOT AN AMMONIA SHOT WHICH CAN YOU GET CONCURRENTLY?

>> IT'S BEEN STUDIED QUITE WELL, IN FACT, THAT WE CAN SAFELY RECEIVE THE COVID FLU AND RSV SHOTS ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

IT'S CONVENIENT YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE MULTIPLE APPOINTMENTS IF YOU CAN FIND A PROVIDER IT'S SAFE TO DO SO IF YOU ELIGIBLE FOR THEM.

COVID AND FLU TOGETHER HAVE BEEN STUDIED AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT MAY BE BETTER FOR YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM TO RECEIVE BOTH THAN SEPARATELY.

THERE MAYBE AN ADVANTAGE.

>> Jeff: COVID AND FLU.

>> WHICH HAS BEEN STUDIED, TENSESIVELY.

ALL THREE ARE SAVE TO RECEIVE IT AT THE SAME TIME.

>> Jeff: A VIEWER WANTS TO KNOW, LARRY, I RECEIVED A COVID VACCINE IN MAY OF '21 SHOULD I GET ANOTHER SHOT IF YES WHERE SHOULD I GO COVERED BY MEDICAID?

>> THAT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

SO EVERYBODY OVER THE AGE OF SIX MONTHS IS ELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE A COVID BOOSTER.

IF YOUR LAST VACCINE WAS IN 2021 UNLESS YOU WERE RECENTLY INFECTED HAVING COVID THERE IS A BENEFIT TO BEING BOOSTED.

VACCINES.GOV HAVE LOCAL PHARMACIES LISTED AND THE VACCINES REMAIN COVERED BY MEDICAID.

>> Jeff: IF SOMEBODY COMES DOWN WITH IT AND IF THEY TAKE A TEST, AND IF IT'S POSITIVE, THERE AREN'T REALLY ANY FIRM RULES ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AT THIS POINT?

ARE THERE?

>> WELL, THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE C.D.C.

WHAT I THINK IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCES IS THAT THERE'S LITTLE THAT IS DRIVE ESPECIALLY BY TESTING.

SO OR FIRM DURATIONS OF ICE HAITIAN TIME.

IT'S DRIVEN BY SYMPTOMS AND IMPROVEMENT WHICH MAKES IT COVID MORE ALIGNED WITH OTHER RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS.

KEEPING IT SIMPLE.

IF YOU ARE INFECTED, FOR THOSE NEXT FEW DAYS WHILE YOU ARE FEELING UNWELL, FEVERS AND SYMPTOMS, ISOLATING YOURSELF PREVENTS OTHERS FROM GETTING INFECTED AS WELL.

AND WHICH CAN BE MORE HARMFUL FOR THEM.

AND ONCE YOU ARE FEELING BETTER FEVERS ARE IMPROVED, THEN IT'S OKAY TO START GOING BACK ABOUT YOUR NORMAL ACTIVITIES.

>> Jeff: Dr. GREG SCHRANK FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND MEDICAL CENTER THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, JEFF.

>> Jeff: NOW ON THE BOOK BEAT WE ARE JOINED BY THE AUTHOR OF PARDON POWER, HOW THE PARDON SYSTEM WORKS AND WHY.

SHE IS LAW PROFESSOR KIM WEHLE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND WHAT A GREAT TOPIC FOR A BOOK.

>> WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK IT IS TIMELY WITH THE ELECTION NOW COUNTDOWN A FEW MONTHS AWAY.

>> Jeff: LET'S START WITH THE WHY PART.

WHY IS THERE A PARDON POWER VESTED IN THE EXECUTIVE NATIONALLY AND AT THE STATE LEVEL?

>> IT'S BORROWED FROM THE KING'S POWER TO PARDON IN ENGLAND AND MADE IT INTO THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION WITHOUT A LOT OF DISCUSSION T GOES BACK TO ANCIENT BAB LOANIAN TIMES SOMETHING THAT IS IN EVERY COUNTRY EXCEPT CHINA AND THE IDEA IF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM GOES AWRY SOMEONE FALLS THROUGH THE CRACKS PUNISHMENT DOES NOT FIT THE CRIME THERE IS THIS BENEVOLENT SOVEREIGN WHO CAN COME IN AND PARDON SOMEONE INDIVIDUALLY OR DO IT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS WE CALL IT AMNESTY AND THE NOTION IS SOMETIMES THE COUNTRY NEEDS TO MOVE ON.

AS THE COMMANDER OF THE NATION THAT PERSON CAN MAKE THAT DECISION LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON DID WITH THE FIRST PARDON FOR THE WHISKEY REBELS.

>> Jeff: AND LINCOLN DID SOMETHING SIMILAR AS WELL.

>> LINCOLN PARDONED THE CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS WANTING THEM BACK INTO THE UNION AND BACK INTO THE UNION ARMY.

AND, OF COURSE, MORE RECENTLY JIMMY CARTER PARDONED VIETNAM DRAFT DODGERS SO WE'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN SINCE THE BEGINNING OF AMERICAN REPUBLIC.

>> Jeff: THE BOOK JACKET SAYS THAT YOU DEBUNK THE IDEA THAT THE PARDON POWER HAS NO LIMITS.

IS THAT THE CASE?

>> I DO I THINK THAT IS A MYTHOLOGY ONE OF THE REASONS I WROTE THE BOOK BECAUSE THERE IS A KNEE-JERK REACTION THAT PRESIDENTS CAN ACT LIKE CORRUPT KINGS WHEN IT COMES TO PARDONS.

HISTORICALLY THERE WERE RESTRAINTS ON KING GEORGE III.

SO THE IDEA WE HAVE MORE SPANSIVE POWER FOR PRESIDENTS THAT THE KINGS FOUGHT TO KICK OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SUPREME COURTS RECOGNIZE LIMITS ON PARDONS.

YOU CANNOT EXPECT SOMEONE TO ACCEPT A PARDON.

YOU CAN'T PARDON A CRIME THAT HAS NOT BEEN COMMITTED YET.

IF PART OF YOUR PARDON ORDERED THE TREASURY TO REIMBURSE A DEFENDANT WHO HAD TO PAY A CRIMINAL PENALTY BECAUSE THAT WOULD VIOLATE CONGRESS' APPROPRIATIONS CLAUSE POWER.

WE'VE SEEN THESE LIMITS AND TO ME IT MAKES SENSE THERE COULD BE MORE LIMITS IF THE RIGHT CASE WERE BROUGHT TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT TO IDENTIFY THOSE LIMITS LIKE A SELF PARDON.

>> Jeff: JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS A PROCESS FOR THIS.

BUT IT'S NOT REALLY MANDATORY.

COULD A PRESIDENT WRITE OUT LONGHAND I HEREBY PARDON WHOEVER AND WOULD THAT BE SUFFICIENT?

>> WELL, THERE IS A PARDON SYSTEM.

BUT DONALD TRUMP MORE THAN ANY PRESIDENT BY PASSED IT.

THE PARDON HAS TO BE SOME WOULD SAY IT HAS TO BE SPECIFIC.

THAT'S NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR.

I PARDON YOU FOR ANY CRIME YOU COULD HAVE COMMITTED THAT MIGHT BE A PROBLEM IT HAS TO BE ACCEPTED.

BUT DONALD TRUMP SHOWED AND PRESIDENTS BEFORE HIM THE PARDON SYSTEM WORKS IN A FLURRY OF REQUESTS AT THE WANING DAYS OF A TRANSITION OF A THE END OF AN ADMINISTRATION AND PEOPLE WITH MONEY AND POWER AND ACCESS AND DONOR MONEY AND OTHER THINGS BASICALLY LOBBY THE PRESIDENT FOR PARDONS AND 60% OF DONALD TRUMP'S PARDONS WERE DONE THAT WAY AT THE END OF HIS TERM.

>> Jeff: AND HE'S THREATENING OR PROMISING TO PARDON THE JANUARY 6TH RIOTERS/INSURRECTIONISTS ANY ISSUES WITH THAT?

>> THAT WOULD BE AN AMNESTY PARDON BUT HE CALLED THEM PATRIOTS.

I KNOW MOST PEOPLE DISAGREE THERE WAS A SURVEY AND A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS INCLUDING REPUBLICANS DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT IN PART BECAUSE IT SENDS A SIGNAL THAT IT'S OKAY TO ENGAGE IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

SO THAT KIND OF A PARDON, I THINK, WOULD BE SO LONG AS IT IS A FEDERAL CRIME WOULD BE CONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT AT LEAST FOR THAT, JEFF, THERE WOULD BE PUBLIC RECOGNITION AND KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS GOING ON.

SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THESE OTHER PARDONS IS IF THERE'S BEHIND THE SCENES QUID PRO QUOS HAPPENING THERE IS NO RECORD AND NO MECHANISM TO APPEAL IT AND BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS LEAVING OFFICE THERE IS NOT POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY LIKE IF DONALD TRUMP TOOK OFFICE AND WENT AHEAD AND PARDONED THOSE FOLKS.

>> Jeff: HOW ABOUT THE BIDEN CASE.

IF JOE BIDEN ON HIS WAY OUT THE DOOR PRESUMABLY AFTER THE ELECTION BUT IF HE WANTED TO PARDON HIS SON IN A FATHERLY WAY, IS THERE ANYTHING -- YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT POLITICALLY BUT THERE'S BARRIER TO DOING THAT?

>> BILL CLINTON PARDONED A FAMILY MEMBER.

DONALD TRUMP PARDONED JARED KUSHNER'S BAD.

THEY'RE ARGUMENT THAT FAMILY MEMBERS SHOULD BE OFF LIMITS BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF LIKE INSIDER HELP.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HUNTER BIDEN'S STORY IS TRAGIC ONE IN THAT THE CRIMES HE WAS COMMITTED WERE RELATIVELY MINOR THAT IS ATTACKS -- A TAX EVASION OR LYING ON THE TAX RETURNS AND LYING ON A GUN APPLICATION, ALL AROUND HIS SERIOUS ADDICTION.

FALLING INTO ADDICTION AFTER HIS BROTHER, BEAU DIED WITH BRAIN CANCER.

YOU COULD MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT THAT SCENARIO MIGHT BE ONE WHERE A PRESIDENT SETTING ASIDE HUNTER BIDEN'S RELATIONSHIP COULD SAY THIS IS THE PERSON THAT LITERALLY DOESN'T NEED TO BE IN PRISONED.

HE CAN MOVE ON.

>> Jeff: I THINK EVERYBODY ASSUMES IF TRUMP IS REELECTED SWORN IN ON JANUARY 20TH AT 12:01 HE WOULD FIRE THE SPECIAL COUNSEL AND END THAT CASE.

COULD HE AS YOU REFERENCED, PARDON HIMSELF?

>> HE SAID HE COULD PARDON HIMSELF.

I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE HE DID PARDON HIMSELF IN THE LAST ADMINISTRATION AND HASN'T MADE THAT PUBLIC YET.

THE QUESTION IS IF HE DID WOULD THERE BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IT.

I THINK IN THIS MOMENT NO.

THERE'S NO LIMIT THAT SAYS IN THE LAW SAYING A BAN ON SELF PARDONS.

SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE POLITICAL PUSHBACK OR SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CHALLENGE THAT IF THEY HAD STANDING TO THE SUPREME COURT AND THAT IS TRUMP FRIENDLY.

SAY NO SELF PARDONS.

I THINK THE ANSWER ALL THAT TOGETHER TO YOUR QUESTION IS YEAH HE PROBABLY COULD DO IT.

>> Jeff: YOUR THEORIZING THAT SPECULATING THAT WHILE HE WAS STILL PRESIDENT, HE IN AN INFORMAL OR FORMAL WAY, IF IT WAS A FORMAL WAY THERE WOULD BE A RECORD.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE AN INFORMAL PARDON OF HIMSELF THAT FOR SOME REASON HE KEPT UNDER WRAPS TO THIS POINT?

>> THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THE PARDONS CAN BE MADE PUBLIC IT COULD BE IN A DRAWER AS LONG AS IT WAS NOTARIZED WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT.

>> Jeff: YOU COULD SEARCH IN MAR-A-LAGO.

>> EXACTLY MAYBE IT'S IN ONE OF THE 40 SOMETHING MISSING FOLDERS MARKED CLASSIFIED TO THIS VERY DAY WHICH I THINK REMAINS A NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERN FOR AMERICA THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT.

>> Jeff: HE WOULD NOT HAVE THE POWER TO PARDON HIMSELF FOR A STATE OFFENSE, A STATE CRIME, WHICH HE'S BEEN CHARGED WITH.

>> CORRECT.

THE FEDERAL PARDON POWER ONLY GOES TO FEDERAL CRIMES THIS WOULD NOT AFFECT NEW YORK AND IT WOULD NOT AFFECT GEORGIA.

AND IN GEORGIA, YOU HAVE TO HAVE SERVED FIVE YEARS AFTER SERVING YOUR FULL SENTENCE TO QUALIFY FOR A PARDON.

HE'S OUT OF LUCK IN GEORGIA.

>> Jeff: THERE WAS A HUGE BATCH OF PARDONS FROM THE MARYLAND GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, GOVERNOR MOORE PARDONING 175,000 PEOPLE FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION CONVICTIONS.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE?

>> JOE BIDEN DID A SIMILAR THING THAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF AN AMNESTY PARDON IT SEEMS REASONABLY WITHIN THE SCOPE OF A LEGITIMATE PARDON.

BARACK OBAMA IN 2014 UNDER HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DID A CLEMENCY INITIATIVE THAT COMMUTED LOW LEVEL DRUG OFFENSES THAT DID NOT INVOLVE ANY VIOLENCE BECAUSE AT THE TIME IN 2014 IF THE PEOPLE HAD BEEN PROSECUTED UNDER THE MODERN LAW IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER THAT IS A VALID USE AND IT'S PUBLIC PEOPLE CAN THEN VOTE ON THAT AND REPORTERS KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING.

IT'S ALL THESE SIDE DEALS, PEDESTRIAN DELLING PARDONS, RUDY GIULIANI REPORTEDLY SELLING THEM FOR $2 MILLION A POP.

THERE ARE LAWYERS IN WASHINGTON THAT TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE IN EXCHANGE FOR TRYING TO GET THE PARDON THE PRESIDENT'S DESK.

THESE ARE NOT FOLKS REGULAR FOLKS THAT ARE IN PRISON THAT DON'T KNOW HIGH LEVEL PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON THESE ARE PEOPLE WITH POWER AND INFLUENCE.

>> Jeff: THERE IS AN ACCUSATION AT THE END OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION THAT THERE WAS MONEY MOVED AROUND MAYBE TO CAMPAIGN ACCOUNTS OR THE FOUNDATION IN EXCHANGE FOR A PARDON OF A FINANCIER.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE AND ALSO IN LIGHT OF THE SUPREME COURT IMMUNITY DECISION, BECAUSE THAT'S ON THE LIST OF PRESIDENTIAL POWERS, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED AS A CRIME IF IN FACT SOMETHING INAPPROPRIATE HAPPENED?

>> THAT WAS A MARK RICH PARDON BILL CLINTON AND HE DID GET PUSHBACK AND HE REGRETTED DOING THAT.

CONGRESS OPENED AN INVESTIGATION AND EVEN THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK OPENED AN INVESTIGATION TO SEE IF THAT WAS A PAY FOR PLAY PARDON THAT DEMONSTRATES THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR PARDONS.

THERE HAVE BEEN PUSHBACKS ON PARDONS WE'VE DROPPED THAT.

KNEW THE IMMUNITY DECISION THIS CREATES A REAL SORT OF SMOKING GUN FOR THE PARDON.

IT IS REALLY A PROBLEM.

BECAUSE THE IMMUNITY DECISION MANUFACTURED CRIMINAL IMMUNITY FOR PRESIDENTS NOW IF THEY USE OFFICIAL POWER THEY CAN COMMIT POWERS THAT IS WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAID.

BUT IF YOU WANT TO DIRECT SOMEONE TO EXECUTE AN ORDER TO COMMIT A CRIME ON YOUR BEHALF USING OFFICIAL POWER LIKE TEAM SIX ASSASSINATE MY RIVAL YOU WILL NEED A PARDON THEM MAYBE TO INCENTIVIZE THEM TO DO THAT.

IF YOU TAKE THAT DECISION AND COUPLE IT WITH A PARDON IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO DO THAT THEN YOU HAVE AN ORGANIZED CRIME IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND NOTHING ANYBODY CAN DO THAT.

AND THE RESPONSE TENDS TO BE THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHY THE FRAMERS CREATED A THREE-PART SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.

>> Jeff: ONE THING THAT MIGHT IMPROVE THE LIKELIHOOD OF PEOPLE DOING THE RIGHT THING, THE IDEA YOU COULD PROHIBIT THE USE OF THE PARDON POWER AFTER ELECTION DAY.

IN OTHER WORDS LAME-DUCK PARDONS.

BUT THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT WOULD BE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, CORRECT?

>> YEAH, FOR THAT ONE IT PROBABLY WOULD BE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BUT CONGRESS COULD PASS A LAW BANNING LOBBYING FOR PARDONS.

THEY COULD PASS A LAW REQUIRING A RECORD OF PARDONS.

CONGRESS COULD AMEND THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT TO ALLOW PEOPLE THE ACCESS TO THE INFORMATION.

THE E-MAILS AND TEXTS.

SOME OF THE SUPREME COURT MIGHT SAY IS NOW PROTECTED CONDUCT UNDER THE IMMUNITY DECISION WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT CONGRESS COULD CREATE AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION TO MAKE THE RECOMMENDATIONS NOT HOUSE IT WITHIN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

WHICH PUT THE FOLKS IN JAIL TO BEGIN WITH.

THERE IS AN INHERENT CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

IF THERE WAS A COMMISSION THAT WOULD GO THROUGH THE APPLICATIONS AND THEN THERE WOULD BE A BY PASS BY THE PRESIDENT MAYBE THERE WOULD BE MORE POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE.

KAMALA HARRIS COULD COME INTO OFFICE LIKE I THINK GEORGE W. BUSH SUGGESTED ON HIS WAY OUT AND ANNOUNCE A POLICY AND STICK TO IT.

SHE COULD MAKE PARDONS PART OF HER PLATFORMS OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE UNIQUE POWER TO PARDON PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW USING DNA EVIDENCE.

AND THE APPEALS PROCESS SYSTEM, JEFF, IN THE HABEAS CORPUS SYSTEM CHALLENGING YOUR CONFINEMENT THERE ISN'T MEANINGFUL WAY TO GET OUT OF JAIL IF YOU ARE INNOCENT.

AND THERE'S NO PAROLE UNDER THE FEDERAL SYSTEM.

SO THERE'S NO WAY TO CORRECT THESE THINGS IN THIS MOMENT OTHER THAN THE PARDON.

AND PRESIDENTS ARE USING IT.

MEANWHILE TAXPAYERS SPEND $8 BILLION A YEAR ON PRISONS.

SO I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING PEOPLE SHOULD THINK ABOUT.

THIS IS WHERE THEY WANT THEIR MONEY GOING OR DO THEY WANT TO HAVE A MECHANISM TO MAKE SURE THEIR MONEY IS NOT WASTED.

>> Jeff: THE BOOK IS PARDON POWER, HOW THE PARDON SYSTEM WORKS AND WHY.

UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE LAW PROFESSOR KIM WEHLE WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU.

>> ALWAYS GREAT TALKING TO YOU.

THANKS, JEFF.

>> Jeff: AND THAT IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" FOR THIS WEEK.

WE'RE BACK FRIDAY WITH "STATE CIRCLE" AND THE LATEST ON MARYLAND POLITICS.

JOIN US FOR THAT FRIDAY EVENING AT 7:00 P.M. YOU CAN SEE OUR PAST EDITIONS OUR PROGRAMS ON-LINE, VIDEO.MPT.TV ARE.

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FOR ALL OF US AT MPT THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

[♪♪]