(upbeat music) - [Narrator] This is a KSPS PBS election special, interviews with candidates for Spokane Municipal Court Judge.

(upbeat music continues) - Hello, and thank you for joining us for this special election edition of "At Issue."

I'm Dana Haynes.

We don't usually hear a lot about municipal court positions during election season.

In the past, candidates have often run unopposed, or the races are simply overshadowed by more high-profile contests like city council positions.

But criminal justice is a topic intertwined with other hot button issues in Spokane these days, like homelessness, the opioid epidemic, and public safety.

So to talk more about the role Spokane Municipal Court plays in addressing these problems, we're going to hear from the candidates who are seeking positions on that court.

I interviewed Judge Mary Logan and her challenger, Lynden Smithson, who are running for position 2, and Judge Gloria Ochoa-Bruck and her challenger, Sarah Freedman.

They are running for position 3 seat.

Before we hear from them, here's a quick background on Spokane Municipal Court.

It has jurisdiction over criminal misdemeanors, civil infractions, and code violations that occur in the city.

The system includes several therapeutic courts like Community Court, DUI Court, and the Domestic Violence Intervention Court.

Municipal Court differs from Spokane County Superior Court, which is where you would see more serious cases like felony criminal cases.

(transition whooshing) We are going to start our interviews with position 2 an incumbent judge, Mary Logan.

She has served as a municipal court judge since 2009.

Judge Logan, thanks for joining us today.

- Thank you.

- The races for municipal court judge positions usually didn't get a lot of attention.

They're getting more attention because of the debates over homelessness, public safety, and the concerns that our voters are saying that they, what they care about.

What role do you think Municipal Court should play in addressing the crimes that involve the homelessness situation?

- Well, municipal court is, has often been described as the people's court.

It's the place that most people are likely, if they're ever gonna have any court involvement, it will probably be at the limited jurisdiction court.

So either municipal court or district court.

And understand that we don't choose who comes.

We are the receivers of who come into court.

And it is our responsibility to take those steps once they have come into court to handle them appropriately.

It's just a matter of after they pass muster for being, you know, a case that should go forward, what do we do with them next?

And so we've created therapeutic programs to do that.

- You are known for spearheading something we call community court in Spokane that helps provide more actionable solutions for people than just pushing them into jail, which, for some of these people and reoccurring offenders, doesn't seem to be working.

Kind of explain what some specific results are and what it looks like in community court.

- We know that in analysis of the people that come in, that roughly about 38% are dealing with some kind of trauma or mental health component that is having a negative impact on their lives.

We know about 56% come in that actually have a substance use disorder.

We know about 80% plus are coming in with house issues, homelessness issue, that is houselessness issues.

These are viable cases, and the person wants to opt in, then they have to commit to that by going through a needs analysis.

So everyone has a needs analysis.

And that's where we discover these bits of information that I just shared.

And then they craft an agreement that's called a stipulated order of continuance.

And their conditions are, meet these needs that we have determined by virtue of the evaluation.

And we know roughly, I think, 30 to 35 of them actually started into inpatient treatment.

So these are very specific steps that are mandated by this agreement.

They also have to perform community service.

I know that we've probably completed somewhere around 300 community service hours.

So at $16 an hour, that's the give back that the participants give to the city.

All of the details on those individuals are met each Monday, and that is their accountability component.

If they don't do it, then we may increase the amount of time that they have for community service.

- Just this month, many of our region's government community leaders launched this program called Safe and Healthy Spokane.

It's a task force to address public safety and behavioral health systems, as well as the jail overcrowding.

Just speaking a little bit about that.

It aims to develop a more comprehensive plan after voters turned down a ballot issue in 2023 that would've funded that jail expansion.

What do you believe needs to be the top two or three items that this task force takes on?

- I'm not really familiar with what they are trying to get at, but I know that I'll use this as an example.

We do use jail in community court.

When somebody has, I either give them the reins to their life or I take the reins to their life.

And if they're not doing so great with taking their own reins, then we sit down, toe-to-toe, not dissimilar to what you and I are doing right now.

And it's like, "Okay, you are supposed to go to treatment and you haven't.

Your choices right now are you can go to stabilization."

So they can detox and then enter into inpatient within a few days.

"Or you can go to jail and we will also work on the inpatient component of that."

And I give them that choice because I know how you have Officer Wells who will take them to either location, as long as they are peaceful.

And some of them are like, "I don't wanna go to treatment."

So then they go to jail.

But that is a very harsh alternative.

- You have been at this a long time.

Tell our viewers what makes you the most qualified person to stay in your seat.

- Experience.

I have.

I've been a judge for 16 years.

Prior to that, I was a public defender for 11 years.

My initial, I'm dual barred, so I went to school in California, and right upon graduation, I took the California bar, which is, I mean, I got two my horn lists, the toughest bar in the country.

Passed it.

And then I was hired by a medical malpractice lawyer who was looking just to expand slightly.

And we used to represent women and children that were injured in the birthing process.

So my background is quite complex and deep.

I have felt a deep responsibility to give back to people.

And so I made it a study as to how it works in the law.

And when we stood this court up in 2009, I absolutely wanted to make sure that when we were standing up the bones of this court, that it was going to last.

Because I can tell you, people thought we were gonna fail within the first year.

It isn't just because we say so.

We are having a positive effect on the lives of the people that are the most disenfranchised and are currently the most attention to what's happening downtown.

Jail is absolutely used in doses, but what we really wanna do is get people out of the criminal legal system and not compound their problems by just credit for time served and close, which is why back in 2009 this court stood up, was just do something new.

- Next, we're talking with Judge Mary Logan's challenger, Lynden Smithson.

He is an attorney in the City Prosecutor's Office and former Spokane City attorney.

Lynden, thanks for joining us.

You know, the municipal court judge positions aren't usually something that voters pay much attention to.

But I do think that as the debates over homelessness and public safety have become extremely important to voters, this has become now a race that people are paying attention to.

What do you wanna bring to this position?

- Well, I wanna improve, I wanna improve the lifestyle and conditions downtown.

I wanna improve public safety through compassionate accountability.

I wanna bring leadership to not only the municipal court bench, but also community court, where all or a lot of those low-level crimes in the inner city court are filed and where they're handled.

So those are my goals.

That's what I'm looking to do.

- Your challenger was one of the people that helped create community court.

She talks about, it brings individualized justice to each person that comes through that court system.

Do you think that model's working?

And if you don't think it's working, how would you change it?

- Right, so the model's a good model.

I think it is not effective currently.

And I think what needs to change is I think we need a level of accountability that isn't there currently.

You can go back a year ago and listen to the recordings on the record, and people are being dismissed with multiple cases.

They're not doing treatment.

They're not out of homelessness.

They're kind of swirling in a really difficult situation.

And the court could be a way to get them out of that.

There are a lot of treatment providers that surround community court.

A lot of resources are invested there.

And people should be getting out of the cryogenic cycle, and also they should be getting out the streets.

- You used this phrase just a minute ago, compassionate accountability.

It's important when we talk about these issues of homelessness, the crimes that happen, intertwined with mental health and drug use.

How do you balance that compassion then with accountability and more of a stiff arm of justice towards some of these people?

How do you balance that and create that sweet spot where people are being held accountable for their actions?

- Yeah, that's the dance, right?

So I worked in our mental health court for quite some time, and in the mental health court, our judges were great, but we had a team.

We had probation officers, we had peer navigators that helped the people out, the defense attorney, the prosecutor, and we had people with profound mental health issues that came through our system.

They were in there for 24 months.

Generally, they went through a chemical dependency evaluation, mental health evaluation, and we got them into those classes, and they progressed through.

And I have to tell you, some of the greatest success stories that I've ever seen in my legal career came out of mental health court.

So it is a fine line, but it's definitely attainable.

And what you can see is that people that go through the system and are doing better, they're healing, they're empowered.

They realize that by putting their mind to it and working hard, that they can achieve their goals.

And I think that a lot of them got outta the cycle, never went back.

The recidivism rate in mental health court is in the 20%, like 21, 25%, somewhere in there.

I think, overall in municipal court, it's around 80%.

And we don't even know what is in community court.

I suspect it's higher.

So I think just that compassionate accountability piece is what's missing currently.

- Just this month, our region's government and community leaders launched this Safe and Healthy Spokane task force.

If you could speak directly to the task force, what would you like to see them put as their priorities 1, 2, 3?

- Yeah, we definitely need more jail space.

And not necessarily jail, as in locking people up, but we need a place where people can go and be connected with resources.

And currently, that is provided by either for-profit or not-for-profit agencies in our community.

And that's good.

They're working well.

But if we had a well-rounded jail model where they could be on site, that when people are released from jail, like when you're arrested, so when you commit a crime, oftentimes you get arrested.

So if people can be released right into that system and get connected with services, treatment, that type of stuff right away, that would be great.

I think the reason that that didn't pass is because they didn't have that specificity that the population was looking for when we were gonna write a, a very large check.

So that's definitely, you know, one piece of the pie.

The second thing I think is just buy-in, and I think that the county and city need to work together and they need to buy in and we need to solve this together.

The third thing I would say is I think municipal court needs new leadership.

- What do you want our viewers and voters to know about you and what makes you the best person for this position?

- Yeah, I've been in Spokane since 1995.

Like I said, I was a criminal defense attorney.

I was in the prosecutor's office for a long time.

I prosecuted de domestic violence cases for quite some time.

I established our current domestic violence unit in 2010 or 2011 under Mayor Condon.

Then I was our city attorney under Mayor Woodward.

Currently, I do civil litigation.

I defend the city when we get sued, and that's often.

So I've looked at this issue from many different angles.

And I feel that at this time, we need new insight, we need new ideas, we need new leadership.

And that's the reason that I'm running for Spokane Municipal Court position 2.

- Well, we want to also hear from the candidates vying for position 3.

We're going to start with Sarah Freedman, a local criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.

Sarah, thanks for joining us.

- Thank you.

- You know, oftentimes, municipal court judge positions are overlooked in elections.

People don't pay a lot of attention to them.

But because of the situation we're in, in here in Spokane, there has been debates over homelessness, public safety, and it's a top concern for voters.

So what role do you think municipal court should play in addressing these problems?

- I think that municipal court plays a very significant role, in that it's one of the three branches of government.

And so, obviously, we are not executive branch, right?

And we are not legislative.

We are judicial.

And so in that we can and provide resources once someone has entered into the system, that's something that is really crucial and necessary because we see people at a crux, really a turning point.

So, I mean, there's a huge civil side of municipal court as well.

But if we're specifically talking about the criminal side of things, I think it's really crucial to remember that oftentimes, either it's these repeat smaller nuisance type behaviors, or it's someone's first brush with the system.

And that's when you can make the most change.

- We've heard the phrase, "compassionate accountability," used as it relates to the municipal court system.

How do you balance that compassionate support with what a lot of your voters are wanting, which is a heavy hand or a heavy, a little bit more heavy hand, firm hand of the law to help curb some of this crime?

Like, where's the balance there?

- I'm not sure what compassionate accountability means.

I talk a lot about empathy in the courtroom, and I have quite a few examples of different judges that I've seen be prime examples of using empathy while applying the law in a way that's consistent with the law.

I've heard this compassionate accountability phrase utilized, and I really have racked my brain to try to figure out what that phrase means because the context that it's utilized in isn't really ever backed up with examples.

I mean, it sounds to me like throwing someone in jail with a smile.

I don't really know what good that does.

When I'm talking about empathy in a courtroom, we're talking about understanding that a person is not a file, a person is not just a case number.

Every single case is a person with a lived experience and a fact pattern that is applied to the law in an individualistic way with individualistic needs.

- Do you believe that the municipal courts now have the resources they need to really enforce this idea of accountability?

- I think that in terms of the tools, I think as long as they're being utilized effectively, yes.

I think the problem is that there have been tools that have been utilized not as effectively as they could be.

- What in general terms would you like your voters to know about you and why you should be voted into this position?

- I think that I am incredibly passionate about what I do now, and I would not be doing this.

But for the fact that there's a real problem in the current system, that needs to be changed and fixed.

- Our final interview is with the position 3 incumbent, Judge Gloria Ochoa-Bruck.

She is seeking a second term in the municipal court judge.

Thank you for joining us.

- Oh, thank you for having me.

- What role do you think the courts should take as it relates to crimes linked to homelessness?

- Well, I think it's incredibly important to separate the two things.

There is a hopelessness issue.

There's also underlying chemical dependency, mental health issues that do need to be addressed in the appropriate manner through services and supports.

And then there's the criminal activity, that's violation of the law.

And I think there's a tendency to try to lump them together as one.

I use the example of if somebody committed a theft and they're housed, they should get the same level of justice that somebody that commits a theft and is experiencing homelessness, somebody is being deprived of their property.

So in my personal judicial philosophy, I really try to separate those things.

I'm very focused on what I call person-centered justice is really looking at that person's ability.

Obviously, somebody that is housed and has family support is going to have more resources and ability to follow through on conditions of their sentence versus somebody that is experiencing more challenges.

So as a municipal court judge, you do have the very one-on-one opportunity to work with individuals on hopefully their recovery journey and their rehabilitation.

- It sounds like that leads me to my next question.

There's a phrase we hear, "compassionate accountability," as it relates to helping these folks who have other underlying issues besides just committing a crime.

Oftentimes, like you said, mental health problem being the one that pops out and substance abuse.

How do you balance that compassionate support with that need and for the public's kind of demand now for accountability and enforcement to keep our community safe?

- So my camp, I'm running my three pillars of my campaign, the same ones that I ran last time is on restorative justice, compassionate accountability, and public safety.

And I think, my judicial philosophy is we need a balanced approach to criminal justice.

If you are too punitive, you cause harm.

If you are too lenient, you cause harm.

The way I define compassionate accountability is, first of all, understanding that accountability is a foundation of recovery.

And that's really important is holding people accountable.

But going back to the person-centered justice is understanding that some people have more challenges and their roles may not be as as easy as somebody else that does have, you know, a full family support and more resources.

But that accountability aspect is important because we need to balance the rehabilitation of an individual with also community safety because community safety also matters.

And as a judge, I need to be looking at both victim safety, community safety, and also what are strategies that we can use to try to get people to engage in services.

- Just this month, many of our region's government and community leaders launched, it's called Safe and Healthy Spokane.

It's a task force to address public safety and behavioral health issues, as well as jail overcrowding.

The task force aims to develop a more comprehensive plan after voters turned down a ballot issue in 2023.

Would you do... What do you believe needs to be the top 2 or 3 priorities of this task force?

- The courts do need, we need more options right now to be, just pretty frank, we have jail or nothing.

I really believe that, you know, if there's a way to divert people to services as early as possible and disrupt that cycle, it's always ideal.

It's better or it's better for the individual, it's better for the community.

It's also better for the taxpayers because it's less expensive than, than utilizing the jail.

- What makes you the most qualified candidate?

Obviously, you're the incumbent, so you do know the system, but what makes you the best candidate to be reelected to this position?

- So in my career, I've had the opportunity to be a deputy prosecutor and work with victims of crime.

I've also was a defense attorney in state and federal court.

So I work closely with defendants, understanding that, you know, some of the, well, every situation, every case is a snapshot in time of someone's life history.

They didn't just get there overnight.

So I understand the hardships people face.

I've also served as a tribal court judge for the Kalispel Tribe and the Spokane Tribe.

And so I learned a lot of restorative justice practices that are used in tribal courts.

I also returned back to school in 2016 to earn my master's in criminal justice and criminology.

Because doing these, this kind of work, I wanted to make sure that I look to evidence-based, research-based solutions and things that actually do work to help people recover.

- Again, we thank the candidates for Spokane Municipal Court for participating in these interviews.

You can watch them again or share them with your friends at ksps.org.

(transition whooshing) And that's not all you'll find on our website.

If you missed our Spokane City Council debates, you can still watch them online.

In district 1, which covers Northeast Spokane incumbent Jonathan Bingle faces challenger Sarah Dixit.

In district 2, Spokane's South side, two newcomers square off, Alejandro Barrientos and Kate Telis.

And in Northeast Spokane's district 3, see the debate between incumbent Zach Zappone and challenger, Christopher Savage.

We also hosted a conversation with Spokane public schools and the City of Spokane Parks Department to talk about Together Spokane.

The two-ballot issues ask Spokane voters to fund dozens of school and park projects.

Here's part of that conversation.

- Rather than drafting something internally, we went out to the public and said, "What would you like to see before we put pen to paper?"

And that master plan really established those programs and those initiatives that we saw.

And rather than that master plan sitting on the shelf, we decided, "You know what?

We really wanna start on that program of what that investment package would look like."

And through that, we shifted from, traditionally, we've done bonds and parks and recreation, and we shifted to a levy because we heard from the public they wanted to see updated maintenance as well as new parks and renovated parks.

And so then we proposed a levy package a couple times, and unfortunately, got delayed, and which got us here today with the partnership with SPS.

- So the levy would allow you to do more consistent work?

- More consistent work around just added maintenance, higher level of service, replacements, new parks, new restrooms, new playgrounds, new amenities system-wide.

And that's what we heard from the public, that we want to see that system-wide approach and improvements to all our parks.

- And in the summer of '23, the parks department came to us and said, "We know you're getting ready to run your next bond.

How could we work together?

How could we partner?"

Going into it, we thought that was just gonna look probably at the scale of the library partnership.

As we met, as we studied, as we conducted outreach, it grew at a significant pace.

And the scale has really become quite astonishing.

Over 200 projects.

30 of those projects are featured partnership opportunities that wouldn't be available if these two ballot initiatives weren't developed through collaboration.

- So to both of you, what were the challenges of merging those two?

And trying to put together of 200 projects, how many of 'em could be done together?

- You know, I think some of the challenges weren't necessarily there originally because it's a great partnership when you look at, not only does the school district and parks department really manage the majority of publicly owned land within the City of Spokane, but also around our mission alignment as far as programming infrastructure for youth, adults, and seniors.

And then that methodology of, you know, this is the public's land, we want them to use it as much as possible.

And really going into it and saying, "How can we activate every space that we manage for the public 365 days out of the year?"

- Catch all of our KSPS election content on ksps.org.

We have an important update about returning your ballot this year.

If you like to drop them off in the mail, do it early.

Due to cost-cutting measures, the U.S.

Postal Service now recommends mailing your ballot at least one week before election day to ensure its postmarked in time.

If your ballot isn't postmarked on or before election day, Tuesday, November 4th, it won't be counted.

You still have other options.

You can take your ballot inside a post office and ask for it to be hands stamped, or deposit your ballot in a designated Spokane County-operated ballot drop box.

Find a list of locations enclosed with your ballot or on the Spokane County Election website.

Like being in the loop on local current affairs, "At Issue" from KSPS is your best resource for in-depth reporting on issues that matter most to you and your family.

On recent episodes, for example, we've tackled homelessness in Spokane and the forever chemicals on the West Plains.

Watch past episodes, read related news articles, and listen to the "At Issue" podcast at ksps.org.

(upbeat music) That's going to do it for our election coverage this season.

From all of us here at KSPS, thank you for watching.

(upbeat music continues)